reading poetry in languages other than english and your native tongue

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:46 pm

i must say i do not care for reading (translated) poetry in languages other english and tamil. translated poetry never has the same visceral appeal as good poetry in english and tamil for me. the lone exceptions are the translated poetry of pablo neruda. maybe the translations weren't very good, i don't know. i think most people are like me. tagore's poems for example -- i can see that they have some intellectual appeal to me but i can never be moved by them as a bengali would.

the few english translations of bharathi's poetry that i've seen don't do justice to the man at all. they are pale imitations of the original. lousy really. so if doesn't appeal to me, i don't see how these translations can appeal to katju or his disciples who don't have a clue about tamil. i think it's more the fact that bharathi wrote about national integration themes that grabs the attention of these integro-fanatics. they care not a whit about the lyrical and poetic content. i am willing to bet my bottom dollar on that.

bharathi's national integration themes are the least interesting to me and they are poetically probably the simplest. his panchAli sabatham and kaNNamma songs, and his totally un-PC poem dissing the veiling of women by northindian muslims which don't translate well and have nothing to do with national integration are fabulously lyrical and poetic. they are difficult to translate and yet are some of his greatest poems.

by Guest Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:53 pm

How is the situation to be remedied? In my opinion for this we have to get over the transitional period and become a modern, industrial state. We must spread scientific thinking in our country on a massive scale, and encourage people to give up superstitions and backward, feudal ideas, e.g. casteism and communalism. This is only possible by a complete revolution in our thinking and attitude towards women, a massive cultural struggle involving hundreds of millions of our people which will sweep away all remnants of the disgusting feudal and medieval practices and mentality which persist even today, particularly towards women, and replace them with scientific thinking and genuine and complete equality between men and women. When and how this will come about I cannot say. But come it will, and all patriotic people in India, including the men, must strive and contribute to this goal.

I will conclude by quoting verses from the great Tamil poet Subramania Bharati who wrote (around 1908-1910) powerful verses in favour of women’s emancipation :

“Gummiyadi Gummiyadi Nadumughudum
Kulungida thaikotti Gummiyadi
Nammai pidiththa pisasugal poyina
Nanmai kandomendru Gummiyadi

Ettaiyum pengal thoduvadhu teemaiyendru
Enniyirundhavan mainduvittar,
Veettunkulley pennai pootivaipomenra
Vindhai manidhar thalai kavinghhar”

(Dandiya-dance to celebrate women’s emancipation) that is:

“Dance oh friend dance, playing dandiya let it be with such
force that as you dance it shakes up and wakes up this entire Nation.

Let us dance to celebrate our emancipation from the ghosts
which were holding on to us for centuries. Let us celebrate our achievement.

Those who thought that if education was given to women it
would harm the society, are all dead today !

Those strange fellows who wanted women to be kept locked
inside their homes have now tasted their downfall !

So, oh friends !Let us celebrate the emancipation of women
and dance playing dandy”.

-----
“Pudhumaip Penn” (The New Woman)

“Aanum Pennum Nigar Enakkollvathaal
Arivil O’ngi Ivvaiyagam Thazhaikkumaam”

(This world will achieve excellence in knowledge
and wisdom by holding men and women equal)

“Vilagi Veettilo’r Pondhil Valarvadhal
Veerap-Pengal Viraivil Ozshippaaram”

(Valiant women will soon eradicate the custom
of growing in seclusion in homes)

“Pengal Viduthalaik Kummi” (Women Liberation Song)
“Yettaiyum Pengal Thoduvathu Theemai
Endrenni Irundhavar Maaindhu Vittaar,
Veettukkulle Pennai Pootti Vaippom Endra
Vindhai Manithar Thalai Kavizhndhaar”

(Those who thought that it was a sin for women to
touch books are dead; the incredible men who
wanted to lock the women inside their homes now
hang their heads in shame)

“Kangal Irandinil ordrai kuththi
Kaatchi Kedutthidalamo
Pengal arivai valarthal, vaiyyam
Pedamai attridum kaaneer

-----
(from a poem titled “Murasu”)

(Out of the two eyes, if you pierce and destroy
one, are you not spoiling your own vision? In fact,
if you educate the women, the backwardness
which grips this world will vanish automatically.”)

“Pattankkal Aazhvadum Sattankkal Seivathum
Paarinil Penkal Nadatha Vanthom

(Women have come up now to get degrees,
to legislate and rule in the world)

http://kgfindia.com/on-women-emancipation.php

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:03 pm

given that he was such an unconventional and free-spirited eccentric, i know it in my bones that bharathi would find the insincere, out-of-context, and anachronistic usage of his poems to stifle and subsume individual cultural identities in the name of national integration reprehensible.

by Guest Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:08 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:given that he was such an unconventional and free-spirited eccentric, i know it in my bones that bharathi would find the insincere, out-of-context, and anachronistic usage of his poems to stifle and subsume individual cultural identities in the name of national integration reprehensible.

if what you say is true then why was Bharati promoting hindi in Tamil Nadu to the extent of personally organizing the teaching of Hindi in TN? i had shown you a scanned copy of a letter in Bharati's handwriting (which i had photographed in the museum opposite Parathasarathi) testifying to this. Moreover, in many of his poems he glorifies the river Ganges, and the Himalayas, etc. which are in North India. He even wrote consistently about 'Bharata Mata' and said that though Bharata Mata speaks different languages her thoughts are one.

-----
From Shakuntala Bharati's book Bharati - My Father:

Pudhuvai (the Tamil name for Pondicherry) was famous for clay dolls made in a village called Kuyavar Palayam (the potter's quarters). Bharati and his friends VOC Iyer and Srinivasachariar visited the place with their families, to have a look at the process of making clay dolls. Enchanted by a pair of white bulls that reminded him of their upright manner, fearless eyes and strength of body, Bharati praised the potter and said, "this man, with a hard built body and eyes shinging with goodness, is a king who has sculptured in clay what I have been toiling to bring out in words."

Bharati and his friends enquired if the potter could make a doll and a big clay sculpture of Bharata Mata. The potter said, "Swami, if you give me a picture, I shall do a nice job and also capture the shine of your blessed face in the sculpture." They discussed about a Bengal portrait of Bharata Mata that VOC Iyer had with him. In that picture, Bharata Mata was portrayed as a poor woman of India with no jewels, wearing only a sari and a blouse, but the sculptor was hesitant to make such a statue.

Iyer said, "Why think about? Today our Bharata Mata is a slave to videshis, losing all her wealth and suffering from poverty. Therefore this picture is a good model for a sculpture."

Hearing this, Bharati got very angry: "mhoom! Let it be sarva bhUshanam. Bharata Mata has absolutely no scarcity of anything. What did the videshis carry away? After all a few of the scattered things. Did they take the Ganga and the Kaveri rolling them up under their arms? Or did they carry away the Himalayas on their heads? Did they carry away anything of this land's fertility, minerals, poetry or art? Nothing is lost. Bharata Mata is always our Queen. So make a statue of her adorned with all jewels, without missing anything of wealth in her person." Awe-struck by these words, his friends consented to Bharati's wish, and had the statue and doll were made accordingly.

Bharati's Bharata Mata is inseparable from Parashakti or Kali or Durga or any other Goddess, who authored and ruled everything that glorified this ancient land.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=561

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:14 pm

his poems were written in a different era when it was important to unite to throw off the yoke a foreign power. these poems and probably the promoting of hindi (which i by the way do not agree with even if it was bharathi who was doing the promoting) was in that spirit.

but i'm sure he would never agree with your program of subsuming individual cultural identities of indians. of that i'm thoroughly convinced.

btw who is VOC iyer? there was v.o.chidambaran piLLai and there was v.v.s.iyer both of whom were his friends, but who on earth is VOC iyer?

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:16 pm

and i'm convinced you have no interest in bharathi's poetry beyond the national integration themes. specifically you have no interest in the lyrical and poetic aspects of his poetry. just like i have no interest in the writings of munshi premchand. i tried reading english translations and i also tried mightily reading them in the original because northindians wax eloquent about them. i didn't like them one bit. not because i didn't understand the hindi, but because they did nothing for me.

by Guest Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:17 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:his poems were written in a different era when it was important to unite to throw off the yoke a foreign power. these poems and probably the promoting of hindi (which i by the way do not agree with even if it was bharathi who was doing the promoting) was in that spirit.

but i'm sure he would never agree with your program of subsuming individual cultural identities of indians. of that i'm thoroughly convinced.

btw who is VOC iyer? there was v.o.chidambaran piLLai and there was v.v.s.iyer who were both his friends, but who on earth is VOC iyer?

the extract from his daughter's book is present in a website whose url i have given. i cannot add anything to it. i tried to purchase some of the english biographies of bharati in that museum opposite parathasarathy but i was told they were not for sale--i could only read them there. i then asked them where i could obtain some biographies of Bharati and was directed to go to a specific book shop. but when i went there (it was quite far away) to this book outlet i was told they did not have any biographies of bharati at the moment. i thought this was a complete disgrace--my not being able to get hold of a single english biography of Bharati even in Chennai.

by Guest Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:29 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and i'm convinced you have no interest in bharathi's poetry beyond the national integration themes. specifically you have no interest in the lyrical and poetic aspects of his poetry. just like i have no interest in the writings of munshi premchand. i tried reading english translations and i also tried mightily reading them in the original because northindians wax eloquent about them. i didn't like them one bit. not because i didn't understand the hindi, but because they did nothing for me.

no you are wrong, i have genuine interest in Bharati because he was a very interesting personality. he was the first indian writer in the 20th century to start writing about women's emancipation for instance. earlier i thought that honor belonged to Sharad Chandra Chattopadhyaya, whose novels and novelettes feature very powerfully sketched female characters, but i later found that Bharati's writings on female emancipation precede Sharad Chandra's writings on this theme..

i have never enjoyed premchand myself (perhaps premchand is an acquired taste). the two indian writers i have read to some extent are Saadat Hassan Manto (translated into english and transliterated into devanagari hindi from the original urdu) and Sharad Chandra Chattopadhyaya, also known as Sharad Chandra Chatterjee (translated into hindi and english from the original bengali).
i would highly recommend the short stories of Manto translated by Khalid Hassan. although i preferred the hindi translation (i think its easier to translate from bengali to hindi than bengali to english), you could also try reading Sharad Chandra's english translation of 'Srikanta' published by Penguin. 'Srikanta' is rightly regarded his greatest work, and it has four very strongly and powerfully sketched female characters. I fell in love with two of these female characters--Rajlakshmi and Kamal Lata.

by Guest Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:40 pm

http://www.amazon.com/Srikanta-Sarat-Chandra-Chattopadhyaya/dp/0140236759/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334011103&sr=1-1-fkmr1

http://www.amazon.com/Bitter-Fruit-Saadat-Hasan-Manto/dp/0143102176/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334011155&sr=1-2

by Guest Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:43 pm

Rashmun wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Srikanta-Sarat-Chandra-Chattopadhyaya/dp/0140236759/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334011103&sr=1-1-fkmr1

http://www.amazon.com/Bitter-Fruit-Saadat-Hasan-Manto/dp/0143102176/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334011155&sr=1-2

start with Manto first.

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reading poetry in languages other than english and your native tongue

reading poetry in languages other than english and your native tongue

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