to kinnera and jeremiah

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:26 pm

and anyone else who either has a kid in college or has put one through college within the last five years:

did your child have to disclose his/her race in the college application form? did you consider not disclosing it? (it's another matter that they will figure it out anyway, but why make it easy for them?) i am asking because i have a relative, a very bright girl who is an obvious victim of reverse discrimination (appalling really). she has made it into many schools that are just below the ivies, but none of the ivies. it is very painful to watch her go through this process.

by chameli Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:32 pm

i am neither

but do know that race is required ... we fall in the south east asian group ..not asian

why is ur niece a case of reverse discrimination ?

a tamilian in american college ..

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:34 pm

i am reasonably certain that there is an option to not disclose race. and i don't think there is a racial category as east asians in america. government agencies and colleges tend to put indians, pakistanis, bangladeshis and sri lankans in the asian category.

read this article: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/02/08/do_colleges_redline_asian_americans/

by chameli Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:43 pm

well they wont put u in prison or flog u if u dont disclose race ...no

but why not fill up a form as one is supposed to ..

there isnt a category as south east asians i agree ( see how poorly they think of us ? )

but we are not considered asians ...particularly by the asians

so we put ourselves under "other " category

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:45 pm

chameli wrote:

but we are not considered asians ...particularly by the asians

it doesn't matter what other asians think. these are demographic categories devised by the US govt and the colleges.

by chameli Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:49 pm

looks like u have have the answers then

by Guest Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:50 pm

why should race matter at all in a college entrance application? i am not surprised to hear that the ivies still follow antiquated ways. they erroneously conclude that their antiquated practice of mixing liberal arts with the sciences is the reason for their success and so is everything else from antiquity. i was surprised to hear that i had to pass a mandatory swim test when i got into my college. what ever does swimming have to do with learning or survival these days?

by Guest Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:51 pm

its south asians fellas not south east asians. know your race!

by chameli Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:53 pm

well huz/huf

these prestigious colleges have their ways everyone want to go there

they call the shots

and we end up paying through our nose just for the label "IVY LEAGUE"

by Guest Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:56 pm

yes chams. they are no different from bunkum (rather bunkus) pvt. colleges here. only glorified stuff.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:58 pm

at some point one of these lawsuits is going to work its way up the legal system to the SCOTUS. hope it happens soon.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-02/harvard-targeted-in-u-s-asian-american-discrimination-probe.html

by Guest Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:00 pm

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/nri/nris-in-news/manoj-bhargava-richest-indian-in-us-commits-90-earnings-to-charity/articleshow/12602798.cms

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:03 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:its south asians fellas not south east asians. know your race!

why the plural, considering it's only one person who has committed that error?

by Guest Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:07 pm

your this post made me think you were in agreement with chams. i think i misread you.

by MulaiAzhagi Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:13 pm

i am asking because i have a relative, a very bright girl who is an obvious victim of reverse discrimination (appalling really). she has made it into many schools that are just below the ivies, but none of the ivies. it is very painful to watch her go through this process.

===> The girl you have mentioned is not a victim of reverse discrimination. She is being discriminated because she is Indian.

The usage of the term "reverse discrimination" is wrong in this context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_discrimination

Reverse discrimination is a term referring to discrimination against members of a dominant or majority group, including the city or state, or in favor of members of a minority or historically disadvantaged group. Groups may be defined in terms of race, gender, ethnicity, or other factors. This discrimination may seek to redress social inequalities where minority groups have been denied access to the same privileges of the majority group. In such cases it is intended to remove discrimination that minority groups may already face.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:21 pm

if the admissions are made race blind at the elite institutions, there is evidence that asians will end up as the dominant majority at those colleges. so what i mentioned in my first post is consistent with the definition you have provided.

by Guest Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:41 pm

very abstruse explanation of "reverse discrimination" in the context you used max! might apply to US colleges but not to ivies (unless they already have a large pop. of asians -- but then...how? -- they haven't changed anything in the entrance application form!). the truth is that ivies have a large asian pop.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:52 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and anyone else who either has a kid in college or has put one through college within the last five years:

did your child have to disclose his/her race in the college application form? did you consider not disclosing it? (it's another matter that they will figure it out anyway, but why make it easy for them?) i am asking because i have a relative, a very bright girl who is an obvious victim of reverse discrimination (appalling really). she has made it into many schools that are just below the ivies, but none of the ivies. it is very painful to watch her go through this process.

hahaha... how difficult do you think it is to "recognize" the race of a "Ashwini Ramanarayanaswamy"?

Nadaa... not happening.....

Discrimination is human nature.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:04 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and anyone else who either has a kid in college or has put one through college within the last five years:

did your child have to disclose his/her race in the college application form? did you consider not disclosing it? (it's another matter that they will figure it out anyway, but why make it easy for them?) i am asking because i have a relative, a very bright girl who is an obvious victim of reverse discrimination (appalling really). she has made it into many schools that are just below the ivies, but none of the ivies. it is very painful to watch her go through this process.

hahaha... how difficult do you think it is to "recognize" the race of a "Ashwini Ramanarayanaswamy"?

Nadaa... not happening.....

Discrimination is human nature.

what if one of us marks caucasian as our race category? will we be required to prove it?

here are two possible justifications:

-- our ancestors were from the central asian caucasus mountains (which is where the word caucasian derives).
-- we know one of our pretty ancestral women ancestors did hanky panky with a local british official resulting in a mixed race child. as a result we are 1/256th or whatever fraction caucasian and therefore caucasian. don't people who have a very small fraction of african american ancestry routinely mark themselves african american on application forms?

kids like my relative definitely have a better shot at making it if they listed themselves as caucasians.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:09 pm

disclaimer: i am not suggesting that anyone should actually do any of the things suggested in my last post. these are what if questions to put the colleges in an uncomfortable place.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:33 pm

or how about legally changing one's name sometime in high school to something generically judeo christian and leaving race unmarked in the application?

by Hellsangel Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:37 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:or how about legally changing one's name sometime in high school to something generically judeo christian and leaving race unmarked in the application?

Like Bobby Jindal or Nikki Haley?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:38 pm

not bobby jindal but yes like nikki haley.

by Guest Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:06 pm

Hi Max,
Disclosing one's race is optional. They say its only for the sake of statistics. It's not a comfortable thing to do. It's like someone asking you for your caste or religion. But i do remember that we disclosed my son's race. It comes under the broad catagory of 'asian'.

by Petrichor Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:32 pm

Welcome to the Hunger Games!

by Petrichor Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:42 pm

1. If pure academic achievements mattered, ivies would look like Stuy with 74% Asians.
2. A legal challenge against the Ivies is fraught with risk but potentially provides a good megaphone.
3. At a campus nearby, 100% of the brown kids scored a perfect SAT 2400. In other words, not a single one had gotten in without the perfect score. Goes to show where the peer cohort is, considering that they make only a couple of hundred in toto each year with that score.
4. Race is asked for, and Indians dutifully answer "Asian". As with other things, not sure what intangible penalties accrue for non-conformance with norm i.e. non disclosure. Suspect one could get away with superhuman achievements.
5. Having said all that, if the application demonstrated leadership, passion and assimilation (DBD's and first gen), I can only say sympathize - inscrutable are the ways of the adcomm.

by Guest Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:11 pm

atcg wrote:1. If pure academic achievements mattered, ivies would look like Stuy with 74% Asians.
2. A legal challenge against the Ivies is fraught with risk but potentially provides a good megaphone.
3. At a campus nearby, 100% of the brown kids scored a perfect SAT 2400. In other words, not a single one had gotten in without the perfect score. Goes to show where the peer cohort is, considering that they make only a couple of hundred in toto each year with that score.
4. Race is asked for, and Indians dutifully answer "Asian". As with other things, not sure what intangible penalties accrue for non-conformance with norm i.e. non disclosure. Suspect one could get away with superhuman achievements.
5. Having said all that, if the application demonstrated leadership, passion and assimilation (DBD's and first gen), I can only say sympathize - inscrutable are the ways of the adcomm.

I remember reading in an article that the admission to ivies was purely on merit (acadamics) previously. So a majority of students at that time happened to be jews and then asians (chinese).So to counter that, they brought in the 'overall/well rounded achievement' (sports, community service, leadership qualities etc) as the criteria for admissions. Doesn't seem fair though! The writer argued that it's veiled discrimination/racism.

by Petrichor Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:12 pm

http ://neuroticparent.typepad.com/

by Guest Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:43 pm

I was told that a girl from the neighborhood got into Harvard coz of her modeling assignments. She wasn't bad at studies, but there could be many who would've been much better than her academically who were denied the admission.
The girl is 5.11 and skinny and so is naturally fit to be a model. i don't understand in what way it is an achievement to be considered for getting admitted into Harvard. Ironically, she's taken a break from studies to focus on her modeling career.

http://www.google.com/search?q=sonia+dara&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=goT&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvnso&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6-yET7ifOY2Q8wT04ZGgCA&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1252&bih=610

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:37 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and anyone else who either has a kid in college or has put one through college within the last five years:

did your child have to disclose his/her race in the college application form? did you consider not disclosing it? (it's another matter that they will figure it out anyway, but why make it easy for them?) i am asking because i have a relative, a very bright girl who is an obvious victim of reverse discrimination (appalling really). she has made it into many schools that are just below the ivies, but none of the ivies. it is very painful to watch her go through this process.

hahaha... how difficult do you think it is to "recognize" the race of a "Ashwini Ramanarayanaswamy"?

Nadaa... not happening.....

Discrimination is human nature.

what if one of us marks caucasian as our race category? will we be required to prove it?

here are two possible justifications:

-- our ancestors were from the central asian caucasus mountains (which is where the word caucasian derives).
-- we know one of our pretty ancestral women ancestors did hanky panky with a local british official resulting in a mixed race child. as a result we are 1/256th or whatever fraction caucasian and therefore caucasian. don't people who have a very small fraction of african american ancestry routinely mark themselves african american on application forms?

kids like my relative definitely have a better shot at making it if they listed themselves as caucasians.

You can mark and claim all you want. Still right claim but wrong color.... Razz

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:44 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

what if one of us marks caucasian as our race category? will we be required to prove it?

here are two possible justifications:

-- our ancestors were from the central asian caucasus mountains (which is where the word caucasian derives).
-- we know one of our pretty ancestral women ancestors did hanky panky with a local british official resulting in a mixed race child. as a result we are 1/256th or whatever fraction caucasian and therefore caucasian. don't people who have a very small fraction of african american ancestry routinely mark themselves african american on application forms?

kids like my relative definitely have a better shot at making it if they listed themselves as caucasians.

Fat Chance....you will know when the time comes to fill out the forms.... All angles are safely covered...

Your best bet is to offer Namaaz five times a day and hope Sarah Palin becomes the prez and forcing the IVY leagues to dump the Chinkus...

by Kris Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:57 pm

Reverse discrimination is a term referring to discrimination against members of a dominant or majority group, including the city or state, or in favor of members of a minority or historically disadvantaged group

>>>>The dominant group would be asians (chinese and indians) if the system went on the basis of true merit. Ergo, it is reverse discrimination.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:46 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am reasonably certain that there is an option to not disclose race. and i don't think there is a racial category as east asians in america. government agencies and colleges tend to put indians, pakistanis, bangladeshis and sri lankans in the asian category.

read this article: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/02/08/do_colleges_redline_asian_americans/

...some details on the race/ethnic categories....

It is possible nowadays to checkmark multiple races.

In any case, the admission and institutional data gatherers are interested in race checkmarks. But, the Adcoms are interested in more than mere stats. They want to "enforce" diversity and hence any "halla gulla" (that too kids with desi names) by applicants will be viewed negatively and screw up even the remotest chances.

Here is a VERY USEFUL tip to get your desi kids into IVY leagues (east or West coast):

Move to midwest.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:49 pm

kinnera wrote:I was told that a girl from the neighborhood got into Harvard coz of her modeling assignments. She wasn't bad at studies, but there could be many who would've been much better than her academically who were denied the admission.
The girl is 5.11 and skinny and so is naturally fit to be a model. i don't understand in what way it is an achievement to be considered for getting admitted into Harvard. Ironically, she's taken a break from studies to focus on her modeling career.

http://www.google.com/search?q=sonia+dara&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=goT&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvnso&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6-yET7ifOY2Q8wT04ZGgCA&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1252&bih=610

beats me! this is the sort of thing that totally throws me for a loop. it's really hard to understand what they want of these youngsters. and it is very painful to see highly meritorious youngsters who've worked their tails off, strived for excellence, and highly accomplished in so many many ways. jeez i'd love to have had the resume that these young people have at that age. i only got through a lousy entrance exam where i did exactly what was needed of me. the parameters were clearly defined.

but despite their best efforts these youngsters still get screwed. how does one go about talking to them about fairness and meritocracy? how does one continue to insist that hard work and striving for excellence pays off?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:55 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:I was told that a girl from the neighborhood got into Harvard coz of her modeling assignments. She wasn't bad at studies, but there could be many who would've been much better than her academically who were denied the admission.
The girl is 5.11 and skinny and so is naturally fit to be a model. i don't understand in what way it is an achievement to be considered for getting admitted into Harvard. Ironically, she's taken a break from studies to focus on her modeling career.

http://www.google.com/search?q=sonia+dara&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=goT&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvnso&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6-yET7ifOY2Q8wT04ZGgCA&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1252&bih=610

beats me! this is the sort of thing that totally throws me for a loop. it's really hard to understand what they want of these youngsters. and it is very painful to see highly meritorious youngsters who've worked their tails off, strived for excellence, and highly accomplished in so many many ways. jeez i'd love to have had the resume that these young people have at that age. i only got through a lousy entrance exam where i did exactly what was needed of me. the parameters were clearly defined.

but despite their best efforts these youngsters still get screwed. how does one go about talking to them about fairness and meritocracy? how does one continue to insist that hard work and striving for excellence pays off?

There was this girl here who came out IB school and scored 232 in PSAT and national merit and all - including all the extra-activities that desi kids have. her elder brother was a trailblazer as well. But, she did not make it to any of the IVY leagues. Ended up in Univ of Kansas and then transferred to pseudo-elite school in her 3rd year.

by charvaka Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:56 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:how does one go about talking to them about fairness and meritocracy? how does one continue to insist that hard work and striving for excellence pays off?

By taking the long view... in the long run, which school one went to is but a small factor in what one accomplishes in life. I know a few young people who were devastated when they didn't make it to IIT years ago, but are now quite accomplished and happy with their careers. Back then they were all bent out of shape about the unfairness of a system where they had worked hard but others not as "meritorious" as them got in. Now it is a distant memory for most of them, and they are happy the luck of birth placed them in the group that got reverse-discriminated against rather than the one that needed affirmative action in the first place.

by MulaiAzhagi Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:04 pm

By taking the long view... in the long run, which school one went to is but a small factor in what one accomplishes in life.

===> People prefer to go to places like Harvard, Yale or Berkeley for the student life experience in those places even though they know very well that they can get a good education at places like University of Maryland at College Park.

by Petrichor Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:24 pm

Fairness and Meritocracy are inherently subjective terms - merit is not merely manifest when the right bubbles are filled, fairness inevitably leads to slippery grounds.

When the kids move away from quantitative binary thinking and into the mosh pit of "popularity" and "street cred", they learn important lessons in what counts. Originality, Leadership and Passion are by-products.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:56 pm

atcg wrote:Originality, Leadership and Passion are by-products.

in my worldview you have it backwards. at least my personal heroes had it exactly the other way around. great work and change in any walk of life was not wrought by popular people, but by unconventional people who did not walk the well trodden path. fame and popularity were by-products.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:08 pm

MulaiAzhagi wrote:By taking the long view... in the long run, which school one went to is but a small factor in what one accomplishes in life.

===> People prefer to go to places like Harvard, Yale or Berkeley for the student life experience in those places even though they know very well that they can get a good education at places like University of Maryland at College Park.

i am getting a radically altered view of what people consider to be elite and desirable schools. berkeley which as an undergraduate student in india we'd kill to get into is not considered on par with the other schools you've mentioned as desirable. i'm not about to change my own mind about all this (i still think berkeley is a great school), but i am telling you what i am hearing from young people.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:26 pm

good read.

this is all still some time away for me. just trying to get an early read on how to go about this phase of my life.

by Petrichor Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:06 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

in my worldview you have it backwards. at least my personal heroes had it exactly the other way around. great work and change in any walk of life was not wrought by popular people, but by unconventional people who did not walk the well trodden path. fame and popularity were by-products.

What works in the minds of children and young teens is different from the courage of conviction that is forged when a fully-formed Character comes into being, late teens.

Most kids are fascinated and covet the fame and popularity of the legends in their midst. In any case, we are only talking about what kind of kid is preferred by the mythical admissions officer.

And I dont know the market share of Nobels and Fields' that Ivies can stake a claim. Prepping kids in that direction is a different problem.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:46 pm

atcg wrote:

What works in the minds of children and young teens is different from the courage of conviction that is forged when a fully-formed Character comes into being, late teens.

Most kids are fascinated and covet the fame and popularity of the legends in their midst. In any case, we are only talking about what kind of kid is preferred by the mythical admissions officer.

And I dont know the market share of Nobels and Fields' that Ivies can stake a claim. Prepping kids in that direction is a different problem.

very true. thanks for sharing. the years ahead are scary and exciting at the same time.

by Guest Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:10 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:good read.

this is all still some time away for me. just trying to get an early read on how to go about this phase of my life.

The article above - author Gregg Easterbrook - also writes Tuesday Morning Quarterback (TMQ) for SI...about all things football as well much much more...very informative & entertaining...

by Kris Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:40 pm

http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-us-colleges-graduate-salary-statistics.asp

The above is a link that shows payscales by college. This is a rule of thumb,obviously but an eye opener. The high school years are a roller coaster and the syndrome of 'aut caeser, aut nihil' is even more pronounced in asian families. It really is unnecessary stress for the students and the parents. My son's school in fact had a special presentation for parents (and the students) on this. He got into a few schools including one fairly coveted one, which was a surprise. I am emphasizing to him though that the name of the game is what skill he comes out with and am looking at the ROI. The elite school paradigm probably does hold for law schools, but in terms of the tech and emerging digital media industries (couple that I can think of right away), iternships will make a big difference. I am also hoping there will be some foreign experience maybe before grad school, preferably in Asia. That will open up a lot of avenues. I think it would be wise to think a bit out of the box the way the economics are changing rather than getting stuck in one model. In the long run, I think if the kid is bright and hard-working and resourceful, success is a given.

by Kris Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:52 pm

'caesar' and 'internship'- my bad!

by Guest Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:53 am

Kris wrote:'caesar' and 'internship'- my bad!

Internships to a huge extent and a real good giving mentor (parents not counted) :-)

My 2 paise...

by Kris Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:20 am

Richard Hed wrote:
Kris wrote:'caesar' and 'internship'- my bad!

Internships to a huge extent and a real good giving mentor (parents not counted) :-)

My 2 paise...

>>>>The way things are going parents won't have much to give anyway (just finishing up my tax returns- grrr!)

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:38 am

Richard Hed wrote:
Kris wrote:'caesar' and 'internship'- my bad!

Internships to a huge extent and a real good giving mentor (parents not counted) :-)

My 2 paise...

Dude:

We are not rich Indians rather poor FOBs long settled in Amrikkaa and financially deprived compared to the middle class in India.

Kids here will take loans and add them to their mortgages to repay all their professional lives (same thing happening in India as well).

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:18 pm

I noticed that the thread was addressed to kinny and Flimmy, who is yet to respond. As someone whose daughter went to Yale and Chicago, he is someone who did something right.

BTW, Since no one responded to me - not even with a GM or a hello - I am withholding my general Gyaan.

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