Re: For Impedimenta- Ranee Ramaswamy

by pravalika nanda Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:49 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
** wrt to bn, i consider it to be the carcass of tamil culture.

i'd like to address other aspects of your screed later, but this is quite interesting. do you also consider western classical music to be the carcass of a moribund western culture? and what about carnatic music?

** i don't see how music (western or carnatic) is comparable to bn, which unlike music is limited by several factors: the small number of people who practice it, the fact that it is gender-biased and consists mostly of women contributors, the kowtowing to gurus and styles and pedigree, the fact that it has not changed at all in the last several hundred years(due to a resistance to change). are you blind to this? unlike other forms of dance, bn never grew, never explored other types of movement or even other ideas. bn is not truly a dance form, it is a ritual that is being handed down from generation to generation.

** don't just get offended and call my opinion a screed. if you have a different opinion with evidence then expand upon it.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:10 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:
** i don't see how music (western or carnatic) is comparable to bn, which unlike music is limited by several factors: the small number of people who practice it, the fact that it is gender-biased and consists mostly of women contributors, the kowtowing to gurus and styles and pedigree, the fact that it has not changed at all in the last several hundred years(due to a resistance to change). are you blind to this? unlike other forms of dance, bn never grew, never explored other types of movement or even other ideas. bn is not truly a dance form, it is a ritual that is being handed down from generation to generation.

to a large extent this is also true of carnatic music and western classical music which have incorporated no ideas from other genres. my question to you is whether this insular nature of the music is in and itself a sign of a moribund culture and art form. at least the former while rigid in its grammar involves innovation within a rigid structure while the latter is entirely based on composed music with very little to no room for interpretation. if you think carnatic music (and presumably western classical music) is not yet a carcass, i wonder why you'd think BN is a carcass. it admits the same level of innovation as CM. in my as yet limited (compared to CM) understanding of BN, the nrtta aspects are quite rigid while the nrithya and natya aspects admit interpretation and innovation. further innovation in BN comes from newer hindu literary texts outside the thanjavur quartet's repertoire getting interpreted during contemporary times. an example is leela sampson's recent interpretation of the kumara sambhavam which i had occasion to watch. she really was awesome.

pravalika nanda wrote:

** don't just get offended and call my opinion a screed. if you have a different opinion with evidence then expand upon it.

i am not offended. it did sound like a screed. i do have a different opinion and expanded a bit in the previous paragraph.

in the end i have to admit that the comments i make about BN are not as well informed as what i have to say about CM. the latter always has been, and is always likely to be the dearest indian art form to me. most of what i know about BN are imbibed from my daughters' training, what impedimenta has said here on these forums, and a bit of self-directed youtube exploration and live concert watching.

by garam_kuta Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:45 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
** wrt to bn, i consider it to be the carcass of tamil culture.

i'd like to address other aspects of your screed later, but this is quite interesting. do you also consider western classical music to be the carcass of a moribund western culture? and what about carnatic music?

** i don't see how music (western or carnatic) is comparable to bn, which unlike music is limited by several factors: the small number of people who practice it, the fact that it is gender-biased and consists mostly of women contributors, the kowtowing to gurus and styles and pedigree, the fact that it has not changed at all in the last several hundred years(due to a resistance to change). are you blind to this? unlike other forms of dance, bn never grew, never explored other types of movement or even other ideas. bn is not truly a dance form, it is a ritual that is being handed down from generation to generation.

** don't just get offended and call my opinion a screed. if you have a different opinion with evidence then expand upon it.

change for change's sake is just attention seeking. watching simple full moon light on east river from york ave NYC is mesmerizing and curiously every time one sees it; so also the chimneys of the roosevelt island bellowing smoke is cool as well; indeed it is very hard to erase all that one had learnt to innovate and produce something new- takes years of unlearning and resist the compulsion to consciously stay away from what you had already learnt. having said that please google liebig and his academic descendants of 32 nobel laurates for the relevance of gurus.

by Maria S Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:36 am

garam_kuta wrote:
change for change's sake is just attention seeking. watching simple full moon light on east river from york ave NYC is mesmerizing and curiously every time one sees it; so also the chimneys of the roosevelt island bellowing smoke is cool as well; indeed it is very hard to erase all that one had learnt to innovate and produce something new- takes years of unlearning and resist the compulsion to consciously stay away from what you had already learnt. having said that please google liebig and his academic descendants of 32 nobel laurates for the relevance of gurus.

Sabaash! I like what you said Garam..and don't see why we can't enjoy what we like and let others enjoy what they like! Why can't one appreciate and enjoy the old(er) art forms and literature which transcend time (here I assume that's why Ms. Ranee was appointed to this prestigious position) and also enjoy Beyonce, J Lo, Rihanna, Shakira...and the hundreds of contemporary Indian "fusion" dancing styles- where our beloved Indian artists..just watch Beyonce, J Lo, Rihanna, Shakira etc, etc and their moves..go wild just copycating them! Nothing wrong with copycating too...heck, I love the "Allegra, Allegra..Indian ponnu thaango"..song with it's most catchy tune!

I was sent to learn BN- when I was a very, very, young bunny/bat, as my "progressive" Christian family did not think there was some religious/caste/socioeconomic barrier to learn something they liked and I may enjoy- with all the rituals".."initially it was a Male Guru (I guess he did not care if it was a female-oriented artform or Non-Hindu girls learning from him- he was good at it) and later a most amazing and versatile Female Guru..who was slim, pretty, graceful!

There are several performing artforms which transcend time..let's say "Classical Ballet" with the same old costumes and tippy toey shoes..and then there is "Contemporary Ballet"-which a lot of mix of modern dance styles and costumes..There is "Classical BN" and there is "Contemporary/Fusion BN"..(have attended a few performances)..with all kinds of new "creative moves/costumes"..obviously in the movies these days BN moves are incorporated in all kinds of ways!

This "lively discussion" about BN and dancing..reminds me of this funny competition from one of the movies (watch from 3.00).. with "some BN moves"..don't think anyone is restricted from doing anything creative in contemporary BN- if they want to!

by Guest Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:38 am

Forgot to change handles, gk?

by Maria S Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:00 am

This one is ok..have seen better ones.

by Maria S Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:11 am

Might as well watch Allegra..think Shreya is a naturally gifted dancer..perhaps the best among contemporary tamil movie stars who can really dance..with grace and poise!

by Impedimenta Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:32 pm

[quote="pravalika nanda"]Again, it’s very hard for me to have a conversation with someone who labels a rock solid foundation [the one key factor in a successful BN career] in BN as pedigree. I asked you to pick up a book on BN just for this reason, your cluelessness.

** it's stupid to read books on bn. once max put up something on bala saraswathi, you thanked him and said you'd watch it. did you? i doubt it cuz you didn't follow it up with further comments. well, i watched it, it was pretty long, and i skipped some parts of it. it was goddamn boring.

Of course I was reading about her write up on BN and made an observation. How she promotes herself and her accomplishments is all praise worthy and no different from several other women I take inspiration from in real life. It is your problem if you assume anything more than just that.

Remember this. Any dancer, however big or small he/she is, will always look up to their style [or a merger of styles they were exposed to] and guru for inspiration. Creativity stems from one’s personality but inspiration for BN dancers will definitely be influenced by one’s style and guru.

** my personal philosophy is to not put people on pedestals, not to search for gurus.

** wrt to bn, i consider it to be the carcass of tamil culture. it's the same thing that they have doing since the stone age that one is forced to watch at these dance recitals: eyes big and wide this way, eye big and wide that way. oh my love for sridhara, oh my devotion for tirumalesa, oh i am pining for soot-colored lover boy sri krishna. same old clothes and jewelry that people wore when the life span was 30.

** two changes have occured - one, some women decided that not only devadasis but middle-class girls should also perform these dances. two, it's all the rage amongst indians in america. poor girls, they think they are imbibing indian culture and history and art. they're just carrying on a ritual and a tradition. they will waste their time putting on tons of make-up, going to these stupid dance classes, spend their money on these costumes that hamper one's movement, they will learn to pine for krishna.

** the women who perform bn are rarely fit or graceful because of it. their styles vary between that of one in a state of lactic acidosis to parkinson's to uremia.

** when has bn been about elegance, grace, flexibililty, freedom, exploration, confidence, spritely men and women?

You really would not know that if you are not in the field.

** well, i did not choose bn cuz i'm not much of a reader.

--------------->
Aiyoo raama. PN, quickly a few points

1) i am really not sure what you are looking for in terms of "evolution" and "innovation" when it comes to a traditional art form like BN? you want women to perform in swim suits? to jazz music? scratch

2) BN has gone through several iterations of evolution. you simply don't see it because of your limited exposure, probably through random youtube videos and arengetrams[debut] here in the US which are a joke, IMO. I do have to agree with what you have to say about girls here in the US who take to BN. with an exception of a handful[i know of three] these girls are rarely inspired by the lyrics[most of them do not understand the essence of the lyrics] and hardly moved by the experience that BN provides. They are taken in by the promise of a stage, the glitter of an entire orchestra playing for them and the praise from relatives on the day of the arengetram and of course, the grandeur of their costumes. most of them treat this like a sweet 16 event. sad! so if you are used to watching such a performance, then you would naturally think that their dresses are uncomfortable and not conducive to movement, their music is melancholic, etc etc. Also, an arangetram almost always showcases very traditional items with no scope for innovation. Absolutely not the case with say, a performance in chennai by a senior artist[priyadarshini govind, alarmel valli] during the dance season.

3) Watching a long documentary on balasaraswathi and enjoying it is a matter of taste. I loved it and i did not have anything to say about it was simply because i don't have the habit of logging in every single day and replying to posts.

4) Here, watch a video of this couple, a fairly traditional repertoire by two amazingly talented dancers

now, watch this one, a more "evolved" performance.

FYI, the predominant style in the above two videos is the same but IMO, the first one stands out.

by Guest Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:32 am

Impedimenta wrote:...simply because i don't have the habit of logging in every single day and replying to posts.

ayyo, bad habit. Evil or Very Mad

i watched both vids. you posted. because i lack the finer appreciation of BN, i enjoyed the second one more (i think 'cos it is faster paced).

by the way, you are excused from logging in today. (it's rakhee purnima.)

by Merlot Daruwala Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:03 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Impedimenta wrote:...simply because i don't have the habit of logging in every single day and replying to posts.
ayyo, bad habit.

i watched both vids. you posted. because i lack the finer appreciation of BN, i enjoyed the second one more (i think 'cos it is faster paced).

by the way, you are excused from logging in today. (it's rakhee purnima.)

Why Hoozay? Are you afraid she'll make you an e-bhaiyya?

by Guest Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:26 am

i am accepting rakhees only from GK today! and that is final! EOD!

by Impedimenta Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:59 am

well, i logged in anyway. i don't think i am even good enuff to be sister material for HK. but he still is my e-bhaiya. sigh, the heart wants what it wants...

now, it wants a bagel. lemme go get it.

by Guest Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:13 am

Impedimenta wrote:well, i logged in anyway. i don't think i am even good enuff to be sister material for HK. but he still is my e-bhaiya. sigh, the heart wants what it wants...

now, it wants a bagel. lemme go get it.

that is so beautiful. Smile

lots of love and flower

as a return gift or whatever they call it when the brother gives a gift to the sis. during raksha bandan. i got a visiting sis. (distant relation) waiting for me in the drawing room. let me go accept her rakhee now.

by Maria S Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:31 am

It is beautiful..and she knows she queen

is always good enough to be sister material for me!

Well Mr. HK..I posted some comments about my videos not being good enough to be viewed and commented upon..but, in the spirit of friendship day in advance (Aug 5,2012)...and since sister I is also the BN expert..will not say one more word Very Happy

.

Facebookipedia says..one can tie a rakhi and also give a friendship bracelet..although some people call Dad and Mom and Siblings..and Spouse(s)- ex, current, future as "friends"..referring to friends as friends is good enough for me:) May make a rare exception for some (!) and elevate them to sibling status (not the generic-faith based kind).

by Impedimenta Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:06 pm

Huz - don't you have to give money to the aforementioned sister? fine. i am ok with the flower.

M akka - the akka kinda does not give you a choice but to take me in as your sister:-) now, all that aside, where's the pampering and the food?

by garam_kuta Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:23 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

i am accepting rakhees only from GK today! and that is final! EOD!

ah..bhaiya.. not just in this life but in many births to come ..such kindness... Very Happy

please accept the special rAkhees that I weaved, made of millions of prayers for the best in health and wealth for you sunny

by garam_kuta Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:31 pm

Natalia Romanova wrote:Forgot to change handles, gk?

huh? you threaten redundancy by bringing in competition and now this ..but for bhaiya's kindness, i would have lost hope in humanity Sad

by Guest Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:35 pm

garam_kuta wrote:
Natalia Romanova wrote:Forgot to change handles, gk?

huh? you threaten redundancy by bringing in competition and now this ..but for bhaiya's kindness, i would have lost hope in humanity

competition? scratch

by garam_kuta Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:48 pm

Natalia Romanova wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
Natalia Romanova wrote:Forgot to change handles, gk?

huh? you threaten redundancy by bringing in competition and now this ..but for bhaiya's kindness, i would have lost hope in humanity

competition?

hint- in the thread on a maruthi model from the mid 90's

it's ok with me as long as its another clone of mine Wink

by Guest Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:04 am

Impedimenta wrote:Huz - don't you have to give money to the aforementioned sister? fine.

sisters have become materialistic and demanding. at one point of time, an amul chocolate bar used to be sufficient.

garam_kuta wrote:please accept the special rAkhees that I weaved, made of millions of prayers for the best in health and wealth for you

lol. thanks! Smile

by Guest Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:13 am

Maria S wrote:In the spirit of friendship day in advance (Aug 5,)
Fabookipedia says..one can tie a raakhi and also give a friendship bracelet..although some people call.

Happy friendship day Maria! Thanks for not making me an e-bhaiya!

Khuda Ne Kaha Itni Dosti Na Kar,
Doston Ki Bhid Me Tu Kho Jayega,
Maine Kaha Ae KHUDA Kabhi Zamee Pe Aakar Mere DOSTO Se Mil,
Tu Bhi Upar Jana Bhool Jayega

God said don't make so many friends
You will get lost in their company
I said - come down and meet my friends
You might not want to go back up!

by Maria S Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:57 am

This is a pleasant surprise.. Very Happy

Thank you very much and wish you the same! Think on line, I will just stick with e-friends:)

There are so many lovely friendship quotes, I have been reading today..and hard to pick a few..

“One's life has value so long as one attributes value to the life of others, by means of love, friendship, and compassion”
~ Simone de Beauvoir

"A true friend unbosoms freely, advises justly, assists readily, adventures boldly, takes all patiently, defends courageously, and continues a friend unchangeably”
~ William Penn

by Guest Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:32 pm

Maria S wrote:Think on line, I will just stick with e-friends:)

ha ha. it is so easy to pick and choose friends in e-world -- you can sift and find the ones you want to befriend with relative ease; not so in real life. it has taken me some time but now i do not treat my online and virtual identities separately and nor my friends (nor enemies -- hi jeri miyan!).

“One's life has value so long as one attributes value to the life of others, by means of love, friendship, and compassion”
~ Simone de Beauvoir

sartre's girlfriend.

"A true friend unbosoms freely, advises justly, assists readily, adventures boldly, takes all patiently, defends courageously, and continues a friend unchangeably”
~ William Penn

nice.

happy friendship day again!

by Hellsangel Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:34 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

(nor enemies -- hi jeri miyan!).

The old dog is no enemy. He is just a delusional pest.

by Guest Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:37 pm

by Guest Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:05 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote: now i do not treat my ~~online~~ offline and virtual identities separately

by Impedimenta Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:58 am

psttt...HK, so is the verdict in? are you my e-bhaiya?

by Guest Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:01 am

Ayyo...I'm glad I stopped watching this thread two days ago.

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