Re: Tamil Wacko

by MulaiAzhagi Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:29 pm

US constitution wrote 'equality to all' loooooong before it was really achieved. Point is, at least it was written by some foreseer.

===> The "foreseer" did not in their wildest imagination believe that Blacks would be given equal rights someday. When the constitution was written, Blacks were slaves. They were not even considered as human beings. Some of the founding fathers thought that slavery was immoral but they did not see blacks ever being allowed to have equal political participation.

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:23 pm

Maria S wrote:PS,
Are you sure that this is her mother..what about her father? Her profiles I have read mention that, and she was the Editor for "The Dalit" magazine.

http://redroom.com/member/meena-kandasamy/bioagazine.

I don't think she is fake (just a colorful personality) and likes "over-exposure" in the media.. has some "Kim Kadarshian-like" tendencies..treats life like a reality show- rather impulsive with men. Unfortunately that stirs up men too..they post terrible things in public about her.

*Any woman activist who is charismatic knows- got to take that, but sometimes she mixes reality and fantasy- which is much too obvious at times. It is hard to believe that she did not know her ex was married and some of the other things she says.

But, who knows! As I said, in her case..it's much too complicated, and it triggers mixed views/feelings about her:)

Yes, She is a non Dalit and uses the Dalit tag for either getting famous / making money / both. None of her parents are Dalits. That is the gripe I heard from Dalit activists. Her mom is a prof. from IIT Madras. There is a long history. IIT management is dominated by a particular group of people and she has filed a case against them for denying her promotions inspite of her having the right qualifications.

If you are a facebook friend, you'd have known how she is all in love with her hubby for one day with her status updates and complain of abuse the next day on Outlook. It is more likely that she is a fake artist.

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:40 pm

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
Maria S wrote:PS,
Are you sure that this is her mother..what about her father? Her profiles I have read mention that, and she was the Editor for "The Dalit" magazine.

http://redroom.com/member/meena-kandasamy/bioagazine.

I don't think she is fake (just a colorful personality) and likes "over-exposure" in the media.. has some "Kim Kadarshian-like" tendencies..treats life like a reality show- rather impulsive with men. Unfortunately that stirs up men too..they post terrible things in public about her.

*Any woman activist who is charismatic knows- got to take that, but sometimes she mixes reality and fantasy- which is much too obvious at times. It is hard to believe that she did not know her ex was married and some of the other things she says.

But, who knows! As I said, in her case..it's much too complicated, and it triggers mixed views/feelings about her:)

Yes, She is a non Dalit and uses the Dalit tag for either getting famous / making money / both. None of her parents are Dalits. That is the gripe I heard from Dalit activists. Her mom is a prof. from IIT Madras. There is a long history. IIT management is dominated by a particular group of people and she has filed a case against them for denying her promotions inspite of her having the right qualifications.

If you are a facebook friend, you'd have known how she is all in love with her hubby for one day with her status updates and complain of abuse the next day on Outlook. It is more likely that she is a fake artist.

Read this

http://tamizachi.com/articles_detail.php?id=257

by MulaiAzhagi Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:18 pm

http://tamizachi.com/index.php

===> Thamizachi is really beautiful.

by MulaiAzhagi Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:29 pm

Looks like Thamizachi was born and brought up in France. She writes better Tamil than many Tamilians in TN.

Once I met on a flight an old Tamil lady and her son who lived in France. They were going to TN for a visit. The lady was third generation Tamilian who was born and raised in Vietnam. She moved to France. The mother and son spoke perfect Tamil.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:03 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Read this

http://tamizachi.com/articles_detail.php?id=257

haha. what a story! fun read. thanks for posting.

by Idéfix Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:25 am

Natalia Romanova wrote:When it comes to politics, anything that is based upon compromise and/or coercion and/or injustice for any group will never sustain in the long run.

Then nothing ever in the realm of politics will appeal to you.

Natalia Romanova wrote:US constitution wrote 'equality to all' loooooong before it was really achieved.

Actually the Declaration of Independence had that, and the Constitution had quite the opposite, with a black slave being counted equal to three-fifths of a free white person.

And the Constitution of India actually has a very explicit commitment to equality, right in its Preamble. (It talks about "equality of status and of opportunity.") So as far as idealism (and ideology) is concerned, there is nothing wrong with the Indian system at least in comparison with the American one.

Natalia Romanova wrote:Imagine what would have happened in this country if someone had said - give more rights to blacks for 1 or 2 generations sacrificing the rights of whites, and we will then try to flip it back. more bloodshed?

Actually the US has something called affirmative action, just like India has reservations. Neither of those things are deemed by their judicial systems as conferring greater rights on blacks / "lower" castes or as "sacrificing the rights" of the whites / "upper" castes.

by Maria S Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:03 am

PS,

Sure, I know Tamizachi too via Fb. She is another bold and upcoming activist..and both have their fans. But, that's where the similarities end. Inspite of all the drama and confusion (Yes, I see the infatuations, seduction, frustration in her writings!) I like Meena..who is dynamic (!) colorful and seems lost/fake at times.

*To have fun with men and their emotions, she plays a huge role in seducing and using..and writing about them... mixing fantasy and reality..for example "My boyfriend speaks of rape"..does not help her or the feminist causes, imo:) But, it wins publicity and awards, so she will continue to write creative- shock poetry!

Whether her parents were Dalit or not..I don't see anything wrong..when people show empathy/sympathy..and speak up for the rights of others from another caste, race, religion etc.

by Guest Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:04 am

panini press wrote:
Natalia Romanova wrote:When it comes to politics, anything that is based upon compromise and/or coercion and/or injustice for any group will never sustain in the long run.
Then nothing ever in the realm of politics will appeal to you.

Natalia Romanova wrote:US constitution wrote 'equality to all' loooooong before it was really achieved.
Actually the Declaration of Independence had that, and the Constitution had quite the opposite, with a black slave being counted equal to three-fifths of a free white person.

And the Constitution of India actually has a very explicit commitment to equality, right in its Preamble. (It talks about "equality of status and of opportunity.") So as far as idealism (and ideology) is concerned, there is nothing wrong with the Indian system at least in comparison with the American one.

Natalia Romanova wrote:Imagine what would have happened in this country if someone had said - give more rights to blacks for 1 or 2 generations sacrificing the rights of whites, and we will then try to flip it back. more bloodshed?
Actually the US has something called affirmative action, just like India has reservations. Neither of those things are deemed by their judicial systems as conferring greater rights on blacks / "lower" castes or as "sacrificing the rights" of the whites / "upper" castes.

Yes, the declaration of independence was criticized from day one on accounts of slavery, but they still upheld it. And later, it was used by other leaders to actually mean it. To be honest, it's still an ongoing process, but that was a good start back then.

India is a joke actually, at least so far. Maybe the same way the declaration of independence was a joke in times of slavery. Calling India secular, and then later creating personal laws coz 'india is not yet modern enough to embrace secularism'. Saying all have equal rights and opportunities, and then enforcing reservations. Thank goodness they restricted it only to the government sector, so far.

Reservations was probably the easiest, and maybe the most popular way out. Even if done with best of intentions, we know now it didn't exactly work. India could have gone ahead and encouraged 'affirmative action' too, in every sector of life. Worked on reforms, educate people, created extremely strong anti-discrimination policies. India can still do it. The reservation law itself was created with an end in mind. Why not use that deadline now? Which political party is willing to do it though? Will India raise its own Abe Lincoln anytime? Anyway, for limited scope of such, please at least say you don't support reservations in perpetuity.

by Guest Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:09 am

Can't find the post, but to your earlier point where you said that no one can stop higher castes from registering themselves as lower castes, well the opposite could have happened too. If a person of lower caste could study and come in a mainstream profession (and many of them did even before reservations), and then stopped mentioning caste anywhere, then no one can label them as any caste, thus slowly and surely getting rid of the caste tag. The advantage of caste divide vs racial divide is that it's not that easy to recognize one. Skin color doesn't count even though mulai aghazi may claim so.

Sounds lofty. I know. Yes, the hold of caste on people's minds was extremely strong. Yes, the changes would have been painfully slow, and many would have suffered longer, but eventually they would have gotten out of it. It would have been impossible to stay in that state. It's anti-evolution. What's delaying that process now is the reservations system itself. WHY would anyone want to give up this laddu?

by Guest Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:16 am

Good points, nats. I agree with you.

On the one hand, ppl are against the caste system and want to abolish it, but on the other hand, they want to hang on to it for the sake of reservations. Hypocrisy! As long as the reservation system exists, caste system exists too.

by Idéfix Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:56 am

kinnera wrote:As long as the reservation system exists, caste system exists too.

And as long as the caste system exists, reservation system ought to exist too. Chicken and egg problem no? Only, in this case the caste system was born just a tad earlier than reservations.

by Idéfix Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:57 am

Natalia Romanova wrote:Yes, the hold of caste on people's minds was extremely strong. Yes, the changes would have been painfully slow, and many would have suffered longer, but eventually they would have gotten out of it.

The framers of the constitution did the right thing. Instead of prolonging the inequality of opportunity and consequent suffering into some distant future, they decided to act to correct the problem at the dawn of independence.

by Guest Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:00 am

panini press wrote:
kinnera wrote:As long as the reservation system exists, caste system exists too.
And as long as the caste system exists, reservation system ought to exist too. Chicken and egg problem no? Only, in this case the caste system was born just a tad earlier than reservations.

Caste system is not legal, reservation system is. Guess which one has lesser binding?

by Guest Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:01 am

panini press wrote:
Natalia Romanova wrote:Yes, the hold of caste on people's minds was extremely strong. Yes, the changes would have been painfully slow, and many would have suffered longer, but eventually they would have gotten out of it.
The framers of the constitution did the right thing. Instead of prolonging the inequality of opportunity and consequent suffering into some distant future, they decided to act to correct the problem at the dawn of independence.

how is providing certain seats exactly correcting what problem?

by Idéfix Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:01 am

Natalia Romanova wrote:To be honest, it's still an ongoing process, but that was a good start back then.

India is a joke actually, at least so far.

You are applying one standard to India and quite another to the US. In both cases, stated constitutional values far outstrip reality. Hell, for most of America's history, most people didn't have the right to vote in elections.

Natalia Romanova wrote:Anyway, for limited scope of such, please at least say you don't support reservations in perpetuity.

I don't want it in perpetuity any more than I want the caste system in perpetuity. Eliminating reservations will now take convincing the historically disadvantaged segments of the population that they now have equal opportunity in broad measure. When that happens, those segments will realize the iniquity of continued reservations and they will be written off the books. Not until then.

by Idéfix Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:02 am

Natalia Romanova wrote:
panini press wrote:
kinnera wrote:As long as the reservation system exists, caste system exists too.
And as long as the caste system exists, reservation system ought to exist too. Chicken and egg problem no? Only, in this case the caste system was born just a tad earlier than reservations.

Caste system is not legal, reservation system is. Guess which one has lesser binding?

For much of its history, the caste system was very much "legal" and binding on people's lives. (Hint: dharma shastras)

by Idéfix Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:04 am

Natalia Romanova wrote:
panini press wrote:The framers of the constitution did the right thing. Instead of prolonging the inequality of opportunity and consequent suffering into some distant future, they decided to act to correct the problem at the dawn of independence.

how is providing certain seats exactly correcting what problem?

The problem sought to be corrected was one of systematic underrepresentation in education and government of historically disadvantaged segments of the population. The system did just that, to the angst of the historically overrepresented segments of the population.

by Guest Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:04 am

panini press wrote:
Natalia Romanova wrote:
panini press wrote:
kinnera wrote:As long as the reservation system exists, caste system exists too.
And as long as the caste system exists, reservation system ought to exist too. Chicken and egg problem no? Only, in this case the caste system was born just a tad earlier than reservations.

Caste system is not legal, reservation system is. Guess which one has lesser binding?
For much of its history, the caste system was very much "legal" and binding on people's lives. (Hint: dharma shastras)

as of 1950, dharma shastras became mere timepass.

by Idéfix Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:05 am

Natalia Romanova wrote:
panini press wrote:
Natalia Romanova wrote:
panini press wrote:
kinnera wrote:As long as the reservation system exists, caste system exists too.
And as long as the caste system exists, reservation system ought to exist too. Chicken and egg problem no? Only, in this case the caste system was born just a tad earlier than reservations.

Caste system is not legal, reservation system is. Guess which one has lesser binding?
For much of its history, the caste system was very much "legal" and binding on people's lives. (Hint: dharma shastras)

as of 1950, dharma shastras became mere timepass.

Yes, and as of 2050 or 2100, reservations may too. The caste system endured for far longer than reservations will.

PS: Actually the dharma shastras did not become timepass until the mid-50s when Nehru pushed the Hindu Code Bill through parliament.

by Guest Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:06 am

panini press wrote:
Natalia Romanova wrote:
panini press wrote:The framers of the constitution did the right thing. Instead of prolonging the inequality of opportunity and consequent suffering into some distant future, they decided to act to correct the problem at the dawn of independence.

how is providing certain seats exactly correcting what problem?
The problem sought to be corrected was one of systematic underrepresentation in education and government of historically disadvantaged segments of the population. The system did just that, to the angst of the historically overrepresented segments of the population.

explain why reservations was the best solution? Do you have any other solutions in mind?

by Guest Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:08 am

panini press wrote:Yes, and as of 2050 or 2100, reservations may too. The caste system endured for far longer than reservations will.

and exactly how? who will validate that caste system is over?

by Ponniyin Selvan Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:16 pm

Natalia Romanova wrote:
panini press wrote:Yes, and as of 2050 or 2100, reservations may too. The caste system endured for far longer than reservations will.

and exactly how? who will validate that caste system is over?

I think a good pointer will be to check the matrimonial ads then and see.

by truthbetold Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:40 pm

Natalia
who said caste system is illegal. It is a reality recognized by indian govt. They are conducting a caste based census. In my opinion indians have a stronger identification with caste than religion. Caste and the concept of tribe and professinon are deeply intertwined.
Caste will outlive reservations. Indians may learn to transform caste into a minor cultural characteristic in future. The idealistic call for destruction of caste has no historical precedent. India has to accept caste as a historical cultural relic just like hinduism but learn to be civil about it.

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