Price of the most important freedom of speech

by Merlot Daruwala Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:22 pm

For all those champions of unfettered freedom of speech in India who got so exercised over the pre-emptive police action last summer at Ramlila grounds in Delhi, here's what happens in India when your beliefs are implemented.

In this case, the group which so desperately wanted to exercise its most important freedom of speech obtained clearances for a protest meeting with an indicative gathering of 1500 people. They then circulated provocative mmses and smses that pulled in a crowd of 20,000, many of who had come prepared with fuel, sticks, knives and even guns. As each speaker exercised his most important freedom of speech with provocative rhetoric, illustrated with gruesome (fabricated) pictures of killings in Assam and Myanmar, passions built up and before long, the mob was on a rampage attacking journalists and cops. And now they don't want to pay for the damages resulting from their irresponsibility.

So here's the final price for the exercise of the most important freedom of speech: 2 dead, 50 injured, damage to 49 public buses, 50 private vehicles including media OB vans, 10 police vans, personal losses of cameras, phones and other valuables snatched in the mayhem.

Happy now**?

**Blind support for an unfettered exercise of the freedom of speech is no different from the NRA's resistance to any form of gun control. Hate-inspiring words have probably led to more loss of life than guns through the history of mankind. I'm surprised you don't see the link.

by Hellsangel Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:35 pm

Germany in 1939 ring a bell?

by Idéfix Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:28 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:many of who had come prepared with fuel, sticks, knives and even guns.

Was that the case with the peaceful crowd that the government lathi-charged in the middle of the night? Also, in this case, was the armed mob raising questions that specifically threatened the record of the current dispensation?

I am surprised you don't see those differences.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:48 am

panini press wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:many of who had come prepared with fuel, sticks, knives and even guns.
Was that the case with the peaceful crowd that the government lathi-charged in the middle of the night?

Nobody will ever know (and those who do won't talk about it) because the cops pre-empted any violence. In this case however, we do know what happened. I prefer to stick to what is known.

panini press wrote:Also, in this case, was the armed mob raising questions that specifically threatened the record of the current dispensation?

Irrelevant. But as it happens, the tirades were largely anti-congress. So?

panini press wrote:I am surprised you don't see those differences.

I've said what I wanted to. You are free to disingenuously nitpick on details while talking from both sides of your mouth on the matter of constitutionally protected rights - advocating strict controls on the one right which you dislike and total lack of controls on the other right which you like - and avoiding the larger question of the price paid by others for the unfettered exercise of the most important freedom of speech. Not very different from the NRA, IMO.

by Idéfix Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:57 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:You are free to disingenuously nitpick on details

The differences I highlighted are very significant to the question at hand (appropriateness of government's use of force).

Merlot Daruwala wrote:while talking from both sides of your mouth on the matter of constitutionally protected rights - advocating strict controls on the one right which you dislike and total lack of controls on the other right which you like

You are confusing India for America. There is no constitutional right to bear arms in India. Weren't you harping on the difference between India and America back when the midnight lathi-charge took place, with your tirades against NRIs?

Merlot Daruwala wrote:the price paid by others for the unfettered exercise of the most important freedom of speech.

There is no price paid by others when a peaceful crowd questions the actions of the government / ruling party of the day. Notwithstanding the ruling party's transparently self-serving FUD tactics.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:20 am

panini press wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:while talking from both sides of your mouth on the matter of constitutionally protected rights - advocating strict controls on the one right which you dislike and total lack of controls on the other right which you like
You are confusing India for America. There is no constitutional right to bear arms in India. Weren't you harping on the difference between India and America back when the midnight lathi-charge took place, with your tirades against NRIs?

You want controls on the constitutional right to bear arms in the US because of all the senseless deaths resulting from the uncontrolled exercise of that right. But you want unfettered freedom of speech in India even when presented with evidence of the senseless deaths and destruction resulting from the uncontrolled exercise of that right. Why is that? Are Indian lives and property less precious compared to American lives? Or are you just blindly parroting the liberal line in the US, without any thought of its relevance and applicability to a different society?

by Idéfix Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:47 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:But you want unfettered freedom of speech in India even when presented with evidence of the senseless deaths and destruction resulting from the uncontrolled exercise of that right.

No, the evidence you presented was not for what I was supporting. I was supporting the right of an unarmed gathering to peacefully protest the actions of the government.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Or are you just blindly parroting the liberal line in the US, without any thought of its relevance and applicability to a different society?

On the contrary, I think allowing governments to get away with midnight lathi-charges on peaceful crowds in the name of vague, implausible sounding threats is harmful to the normal functioning of a democracy. My arguments were thoroughly rooted in India; much of what I said back then was to expose the lies used by the ruling party and its parrots in justification of the midnight lathi-charge. For instance, claims that Ramlila Maidan is not for political gatherings, that it was in a "sensitive" area, etc. I repeated questions that both the Supreme Court and Sonia Gandhi formally asked the government regarding the lathi-charge. I asked questions based on Indian law, like: "did the cops have an arrest warrant?" None of that was based on anything remotely American.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:17 am

panini press wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:But you want unfettered freedom of speech in India even when presented with evidence of the senseless deaths and destruction resulting from the uncontrolled exercise of that right.
No, the evidence you presented was not for what I was supporting. I was supporting the right of an unarmed gathering to peacefully protest the actions of the government.

That's exactly what this peaceful and progressive bunch was doing until they lost control on the crowds gathered there. Any way, from this highly nuanced interpretation of your prior posts, should we now conclude that you no longer champion unfettered free speech in India?

by Idéfix Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:52 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:should we now conclude that you no longer champion unfettered free speech in India?

This notion of unfettered free speech is one that you have constructed as a strawman for my position, so you are welcome to demolish it. My arguments regarding the midnight lathi-charge were based on the rule of Indian law, and respect for free speech as per prior Indian political tradition, not in extension of it. Both you and I know that in India, free speech is not as extensive as it is in the US. At a philosophical level, I am inclined towards more free speech rather than less, but no fundamental right is absolute, or in your words, unfettered. The moment your right comes into conflict with other rights of other citizens, there is a need for limitation.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:04 am

panini press wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:should we now conclude that you no longer champion unfettered free speech in India?
This notion of unfettered free speech is one that you have constructed as a strawman for my position, so you are welcome to demolish it. My arguments regarding the midnight lathi-charge were based on the rule of Indian law, and respect for free speech as per prior Indian political tradition, not in extension of it. Both you and I know that in India, free speech is not as extensive as it is in the US. At a philosophical level, I am inclined towards more free speech rather than less, but no fundamental right is absolute, or in your words, unfettered. The moment your right comes into conflict with other rights of other citizens, there is a need for limitation.

No strawman, saar. I formed that opinion from your prior posts on the topic. Your beliefs appear to have evolved since then.

by truthbetold Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:38 am

Merlot
you make absolute statements without providing sufficient reasoning.
The congress govt action on pieceful protesters at midnight and inaction on hate speech and pre meditated voilent mob is an example of its long practiced votebank politics.
To use that kind of incident as an example of limitation on govts ability to act is perverted and twisted. Mumbai incident is a failure to govern and failure to stand upto muslim extremists for reasons of votebank politics.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:13 am

truthbetold wrote:Merlot
you make absolute statements without providing sufficient reasoning.
The congress govt action on pieceful protesters at midnight and inaction on hate speech and pre meditated voilent mob is an example of its long practiced votebank politics.
To use that kind of incident as an example of limitation on govts ability to act is perverted and twisted. Mumbai incident is a failure to govern and failure to stand upto muslim extremists for reasons of votebank politics.

Dear sir,

Many thanks for your contribution to this thread. Your feedback is noted. Yes, I'm perverted and twisted.

Warm regards,
MD

by Idéfix Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:12 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
panini press wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:should we now conclude that you no longer champion unfettered free speech in India?
This notion of unfettered free speech is one that you have constructed as a strawman for my position, so you are welcome to demolish it. My arguments regarding the midnight lathi-charge were based on the rule of Indian law, and respect for free speech as per prior Indian political tradition, not in extension of it. Both you and I know that in India, free speech is not as extensive as it is in the US. At a philosophical level, I am inclined towards more free speech rather than less, but no fundamental right is absolute, or in your words, unfettered. The moment your right comes into conflict with other rights of other citizens, there is a need for limitation.

No strawman, saar. I formed that opinion from your prior posts on the topic. Your beliefs appear to have evolved since then.

In that post, I clearly admit that the right to free speech has limits -- and talk about my philosophical preference for the size of those limits.

It is interesting that after all this back and forth, you could find nothing related to the midnight lathi-charge where I said anything to support the strawman that you created about my views. Instead, my arguments back then were rooted in Indian political tradition, as was my claim that the government violence in the midnight lathi-charge case was unusual by Indian standards.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:19 am

When I was a student, I a nd a few friend go out on Saturdays and post large handwriien posters near the bus station saying "We want independence for Tamil Nadu". Within a few hour some police constable would rempove it. Where is freedom of speech guaranteed imn Hindian constitution?

Sometimes if a constable see us post, advise us to go to a movie instead of making work for him. Some even joke saying, why don't you go and post it on Chief Minister's house? There are lot of police standing around nothing to do? We have things to do here?

Occasionally they would take us to police station. I think they have a quota to fill. The SI who knew us well from the many visits and chats would say, his kids are not doing well in school. Not sure if they would go to college. We offered to tutor them if we could also tell them some minutes why Tamil Nadu should be liberated. He laugnh and say he did not wantr them to grow up like us. We are spolied rich kids.

Where is the freedsom of speech in Hindia?

I will post about my experence at a TN indep conference which was bannede at the last minute some time.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:59 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:When I was a student,

Where is the freedsom of speech in Hindia?

I will post about my experence at a TN indep conference which was bannede at the last minute some time.

Funny....that the most vocal supporters of "freedom of Speech" are the commies, the MohaMadmans, and Pirabhakaran's butchers.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:53 pm

>> that the most vocal supporters of "freedom of Speech" are the commies, the MohaMadmans, and Pirabhakaran's butchers.

I dont know what the 3 people are. Tell me. Do you support freedom of speechg? Yes or No.

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