at the other end from asaram crapu

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:07 am

i was wounded, my honor wasn't.

her article from many years ago:
http://www.manushi-india.org/pdfs_issues/articles/I%20Fought%20for%20My%20Life.pdf

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:52 am

Max, Bittu will be your best friend reading this and of Asaram's as well. Bittu would love the enjoy-the-act-part-to-stay-alive. I disagree.

Asaram was wrong on his thinking that the 6 Bittus were humans and could be cajoled, by making them Bhaiyas.

Sometimes there's a balance between Life and Dignity. Many people like the delhi girl preferred dignity and I respect for her many times more than the PDF girl. Sometimes a person has to fight to save values, honor.

Imagine soldiers at the front taking advice from the PDF girl.

Offcourse, the 6 Bittus in Delhi and in the above PDF care nothing about dignity or life.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:28 am

i didn't quite understand what southindian is trying to say in the post above, but i get the sense that he is saying that sohaila abdulali and/or the male friend she was with should have sacrificed themselves in the name of saving values and honor, whatever that means.

my response to that is that it is always easier to conscript somebody else to die to defend values and honor that we can then continue to live and cherish. this is the same attitude that the chicken hawks in the republican party display. i want no part of it. i would have done the same thing this woman did, had i been in her place. to live a good and productive life is more important, way more important, than to die for something.

than in itself is a difference in values between southindian and me.

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:47 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote: i would have done the same thing this woman did, had i been in her place. to live a good and productive life is more important, way more important, than to die for something.

Got it Max, and I thought the same about your response. I don't expect all, but many people can understand what I meant to say above.

I agree its not always easy for some people to fight for values. Many give in, run or change.

I'm happy you are not in the armed forces, police or a firefighter.

by Propagandhi711 Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:16 am

southindian wrote:Max, Bittu will be your best friend reading this and of Asaram's as well. Bittu would love the enjoy-the-act-part-to-stay-alive. I disagree.

Asaram was wrong on his thinking that the 6 Bittus were humans and could be cajoled, by making them Bhaiyas.

Sometimes there's a balance between Life and Dignity. Many people like the delhi girl preferred dignity and I respect for her many times more than the PDF girl. Sometimes a person has to fight to save values, honor.

Imagine soldiers at the front taking advice from the PDF girl.

Offcourse, the 6 Bittus in Delhi and in the above PDF care nothing about dignity or life.

so you expect a 17yr old girl to behave in the same manner that trained, professional soldiers do in combat situations? too much bollywood drama going on in that head of yours, buddy. and too little real world.

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:31 am

Propagandhi711 wrote:
southindian wrote:Max, Bittu will be your best friend reading this and of Asaram's as well. Bittu would love the enjoy-the-act-part-to-stay-alive. I disagree.

Asaram was wrong on his thinking that the 6 Bittus were humans and could be cajoled, by making them Bhaiyas.

Sometimes there's a balance between Life and Dignity. Many people like the delhi girl preferred dignity and I respect for her many times more than the PDF girl. Sometimes a person has to fight to save values, honor.

Imagine soldiers at the front taking advice from the PDF girl.

Offcourse, the 6 Bittus in Delhi and in the above PDF care nothing about dignity or life.

so you expect a 17yr old girl to behave in the same manner that trained, professional soldiers do in combat situations? too much bollywood drama going on in that head of yours, buddy. and too little real world.

No definitely not, but imagine state of (any) country borders if soldiers get the hint from this girl's actions, play along with enemy actions to save their lives.

The delhi girl fought with rapists, not give in and died. I have more respect for her then the PDF girl.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:36 am

i have not served in the armed forces, but very close family members have and continue to. one has risen to a high position in the indian army and will likely rise even higher. he has seen combat in kargil and been involved in other combat situations that i don't think i should talk about here.

in speaking with them, my sense is that their first instinct is not to die, but to live. soldiers and officers fight to save lives. losing their life is the last choice. and they have a much deeper appreciation for the fragility of life than chicken hawks. and i don't think they'd endorse southindian's way of thinking. perhaps southindian is confusing professional soldiers and officers with suicide bombers and terrorists.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:46 am

the woman in the article preserved herself to live another day and tell the world her story. that makes us a bit more informed about rape and recovery. had she died, it would have been a meaningless senseless death. there is nothing more to be said.

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:55 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have not served in the armed forces, but very close family members have and continue to. one has risen to a high position in the indian army and will likely rise even higher. he has seen combat in kargil and been involved in other combat situations that i don't think i should talk about here.

in speaking with them, my sense is that their first instinct is not to die, but to live. soldiers and officers fight to save lives. losing their life is the last choice. and they have a much deeper appreciation for the fragility of life than chicken hawks. and i don't think they'd endorse southindian's way of thinking. perhaps southindian is confusing professional soldiers and officers with suicide bombers and terrorists.

That was weak Max. Very weak

Anyone, anyone who is remotely associated with armed forces know, "They fight". Not give in.

So the freedom fighters who fought for your country's independence were idiots? or non pragmatic?

PS: Giving life without a fight is never a point in the armed forces.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:58 am

southindian wrote:
That was weak Max. Very weak

from the vantage point of a chicken hawk it must appear so.

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:08 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
southindian wrote:
That was weak Max. Very weak

from the vantage point of a chicken hawk it must appear so.

weak...and empty words too. no substance.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:44 pm

southindian wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
southindian wrote:
That was weak Max. Very weak

from the vantage point of a chicken hawk it must appear so.

weak...and empty words too. no substance.

i am sorry, did you miss what i was saying? so we don't miss the essence of the discussion on tangential issues, let me reiterate my belief: chicken hawks who claim that rape victims should rather die fighting than preserve themselves to tell us their stories, need to be tarred, feathered, and scorned. they deserve our utmost derision and should be excluded from all social interaction. your turn.

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:57 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
southindian wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
southindian wrote:
That was weak Max. Very weak

from the vantage point of a chicken hawk it must appear so.

weak...and empty words too. no substance.

i am sorry, did you miss what i was saying? so we don't miss the essence of the discussion on tangential issues, let me reiterate my belief: chicken hawks who claim that rape victims should rather die fighting than preserve themselves to tell us their stories, need to be tarred, feathered, and scorned. they deserve our utmost derision and should be excluded from all social interaction. your turn.

Yes, thankfully I missed your point but do agree on one word "chicken".

Anyone, anyone... who does NOT fight while getting raped is nothing more than a... "chicken".

You want to give-in without a fight and live after getting forcefully screwed? Sure!!!

by Idéfix Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:18 pm

I don't understand your point of view, southindian. So the girl was gangraped, and the rapists argued among themselves whether to kill her or not, and finally decided not to kill her. At that point, what should the girl have done? Kill herself like the hero's raped sister does in 1970s movies? Why do you disparage her and imply that she was somehow to blame in the whole story?

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:44 pm

panini press wrote:I don't understand your point of view, southindian. So the girl was gangraped, and the rapists argued among themselves whether to kill her or not, and finally decided not to kill her. At that point, what should the girl have done? Kill herself like the hero's raped sister does in 1970s movies? Why do you disparage her and imply that she was somehow to blame in the whole story?

I'm not blaming her now. She did what she did to save her life and was spared.

My point is also based on this...

A person solely focused on saving skin and does not make a stand even when forcefully screwed cannot be trusted, made friends with or depended upon in ANY situation.

Fortunately India did had many brave souls who could take a stand without thinking about their lives, to lead India towards Independence.

by Rekz Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:01 pm

southindian wrote:
panini press wrote:I don't understand your point of view, southindian. So the girl was gangraped, and the rapists argued among themselves whether to kill her or not, and finally decided not to kill her. At that point, what should the girl have done? Kill herself like the hero's raped sister does in 1970s movies? Why do you disparage her and imply that she was somehow to blame in the whole story?

I'm not blaming her now. She did what she did to save her life and was spared.

My point is also based on this...

A person solely focused on saving skin and does not make a stand even when forcefully screwed cannot be trusted, made friends with or depended upon in ANY situation.

Fortunately India did had many brave souls who could take a stand without thinking about their lives, to lead India towards Independence.

Rape survivor and a freedom fighter???- Infact ur points are WEAK....17yr old acts with presence of mind saves herself and her friend's life...how many of have/had such quick survival instincts esp during such a crisis situation? Do u have same opinions for cancer survivors????Explain the respect factor....

by Idéfix Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:12 pm

southindian wrote:A person solely focused on saving skin and does not make a stand even when forcefully screwed cannot be trusted, made friends with or depended upon in ANY situation.

Why are you assuming that she was solely focused on "saving skin"? How do you know that she didn't resist and fight as much as she possibly could?

Before you cast aspersions on the victims of violence based on their surviving that violence, you should ask yourself whether you have ever been in such a stressful situation yourself.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:34 pm

basically her having survived the attack and come through alive is offending you. look in the mirror. you'll find a douchebag staring back at you.

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:50 pm

panini press wrote:
southindian wrote:A person solely focused on saving skin and does not make a stand even when forcefully screwed cannot be trusted, made friends with or depended upon in ANY situation.
Why are you assuming that she was solely focused on "saving skin"? How do you know that she didn't resist and fight as much as she possibly could?

Before you cast aspersions on the victims of violence based on their surviving that violence, you should ask yourself whether you have ever been in such a stressful situation yourself.

This is the PDF girl in Max's post, who did not resist rape and lived. Could she have died if she resisted rape and fought? May be.. may be not. But she would have not let her rapists easily violate her. I would have fought.

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:59 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:basically her having survived the attack and come through alive is offending you. look in the mirror. you'll find a douchebag staring back at you.

Max, you spin everything? ...and you are good in making things up. Smile

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:03 pm

Rekz wrote:
southindian wrote:
panini press wrote:I don't understand your point of view, southindian. So the girl was gangraped, and the rapists argued among themselves whether to kill her or not, and finally decided not to kill her. At that point, what should the girl have done? Kill herself like the hero's raped sister does in 1970s movies? Why do you disparage her and imply that she was somehow to blame in the whole story?

I'm not blaming her now. She did what she did to save her life and was spared.

My point is also based on this...

A person solely focused on saving skin and does not make a stand even when forcefully screwed cannot be trusted, made friends with or depended upon in ANY situation.

Fortunately India did had many brave souls who could take a stand without thinking about their lives, to lead India towards Independence.

Rape survivor and a freedom fighter???- Infact ur points are WEAK....17yr old acts with presence of mind saves herself and her friend's life...how many of have/had such quick survival instincts esp during such a crisis situation? Do u have same opinions for cancer survivors????Explain the respect factor....

This is waayy off. Fighting a rapist and fighting cancer to suvive are completely different.

by Idéfix Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:06 pm

southindian wrote:
panini press wrote:
southindian wrote:A person solely focused on saving skin and does not make a stand even when forcefully screwed cannot be trusted, made friends with or depended upon in ANY situation.
Why are you assuming that she was solely focused on "saving skin"? How do you know that she didn't resist and fight as much as she possibly could?

Before you cast aspersions on the victims of violence based on their surviving that violence, you should ask yourself whether you have ever been in such a stressful situation yourself.

This is the PDF girl in Max's post, who did not resist rape and lived. Could she have died if she resisted rape and fought? May be.. may be not. But she would have not let her rapists easily violate her. I would have fought.

I disagree that Sohaila did not resist rape. She describes how she did resist. She did not "let her rapists easily violate her." If Jyoti Pandey had lived through her ordeal, perhaps you would be suggesting that just because she lived, she somehow did not resist enough. This is nothing but blaming the victim.

by Idéfix Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:12 pm

Sohaila puts this best:

We need to shelve all the gibberish about honor and virtue and did-she-lead-him-on and could-he-help-himself. We need to put responsibility where it lies: on men who violate women, and on all of us who let them get away with it while we point accusing fingers at their victims.

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:18 pm

panini press wrote:
southindian wrote:
panini press wrote:
southindian wrote:A person solely focused on saving skin and does not make a stand even when forcefully screwed cannot be trusted, made friends with or depended upon in ANY situation.
Why are you assuming that she was solely focused on "saving skin"? How do you know that she didn't resist and fight as much as she possibly could?

Before you cast aspersions on the victims of violence based on their surviving that violence, you should ask yourself whether you have ever been in such a stressful situation yourself.

This is the PDF girl in Max's post, who did not resist rape and lived. Could she have died if she resisted rape and fought? May be.. may be not. But she would have not let her rapists easily violate her. I would have fought.
I disagree that Sohaila did not resist rape. She describes how she did resist. She did not "let her rapists easily violate her." If Jyoti Pandey had lived through her ordeal, perhaps you would be suggesting that just because she lived, she somehow did not resist enough. This is nothing but blaming the victim.

That is not true. You are guessing my intensions and responses.

Jyoti Pandey resisted and fought. We know that. The PDF girl mostly played along after some resistance. She lived and wrote. Since the PDF girl documented, we have to go by her version.

by Idéfix Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:21 pm

southindian wrote:The PDF girl mostly played along after some resistance.

Where did you get that information?

You can't blame her for the rape just because her rapists decided not to kill her on the spot. Even Jyoti Pandey's rapists decided not to kill her on the spot.

by confuzzled dude Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:22 pm

panini press wrote: I disagree that Sohaila did not resist rape. She describes how she did resist. She did not "let her rapists easily violate her." If Jyoti Pandey had lived through her ordeal, perhaps you would be suggesting that just because she lived, she somehow did not resist enough. This is nothing but blaming the victim.

Does the name Sohaila has anything to do with her being unpatriotic

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:35 pm

panini press wrote:
southindian wrote:The PDF girl mostly played along after some resistance.
Where did you get that information?

You can't blame her for the rape just because her rapists decided not to kill her on the spot. Even Jyoti Pandey's rapists decided not to kill her on the spot.

Again...I'm not blaming her. She did what she had to do to save her life. In my opinion all rapists need to be eliminated.

She survived. Wrote a document. So I was expecting to read how much she was able to harm those rapists before she played to survive.

Out of fear, she did play along

I told one of them that ifhe ensured neither Rashid nor I was killed,1 would come back to meet him, the rapist,the next day.

by Idéfix Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:41 pm

southindian wrote:
panini press wrote:
southindian wrote:The PDF girl mostly played along after some resistance.
Where did you get that information?

You can't blame her for the rape just because her rapists decided not to kill her on the spot. Even Jyoti Pandey's rapists decided not to kill her on the spot.

Again...I'm not blaming her. She did what she had to do to save her life. In my opinion all rapists need to be eliminated.

She survived. Wrote a document. So I was expecting to read how much she was able to harm those rapists before she played to survive.

Out of fear, she did play along

I told one of them that ifhe ensured neither Rashid nor I was killed,1 would come back to meet him, the rapist,the next day.

Did she go back to meet the rapist the next day? Or did she try to get them prosecuted?

I think you should introspect before casting aspersions on the victim of a crime like gangrape. What you are doing here is precisely the sort of behavior Sohaila talks about in her articles. You are reacting to her the same way the police did as she describes in her old article.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:47 pm

panini press wrote: You are reacting to her the same way the police did as she describes in her old article.

southindian should really call himself saudi arabian. he asked me not to join the police. i think he SHOULD join the police, the mumbai police that is. he'd fit right in.

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:00 pm

panini press wrote:
southindian wrote:
panini press wrote:
southindian wrote:The PDF girl mostly played along after some resistance.
Where did you get that information?

You can't blame her for the rape just because her rapists decided not to kill her on the spot. Even Jyoti Pandey's rapists decided not to kill her on the spot.

Again...I'm not blaming her. She did what she had to do to save her life. In my opinion all rapists need to be eliminated.

She survived. Wrote a document. So I was expecting to read how much she was able to harm those rapists before she played to survive.

Out of fear, she did play along

I told one of them that ifhe ensured neither Rashid nor I was killed,1 would come back to meet him, the rapist,the next day.
Did she go back to meet the rapist the next day? Or did she try to get them prosecuted?

I think you should introspect before casting aspersions on the victim of a crime like gangrape. What you are doing here is precisely the sort of behavior Sohaila talks about in her articles. You are reacting to her the same way the police did as she describes in her old article.

No. I guess "most" adults would not strech her statements made to rapists and understand she was mostly creating doubts in rapist's minds.

On the contrary, she played Asaram's card with rapists to save her life which I don't agree with.

by southindian Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:05 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
panini press wrote: You are reacting to her the same way the police did as she describes in her old article.

southindian should really call himself saudi arabian. he asked me not to join the police. i think he SHOULD join the police, the mumbai police that is. he'd fit right in.

Thanks Max. I hope I could do that someday.

I pray you don't ever, ever, ever join the army or the police.

I hate to see a soldier running away to save his life when attacked by enemy. Not good for ANY country.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:15 pm

i won't join the army. i am not physically very courageous. i readily admit that. it would have been a terrible career choice for me.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:23 pm

panini press wrote:
southindian wrote:
panini press wrote:
southindian wrote:A person solely focused on saving skin and does not make a stand even when forcefully screwed cannot be trusted, made friends with or depended upon in ANY situation.
Why are you assuming that she was solely focused on "saving skin"? How do you know that she didn't resist and fight as much as she possibly could?

Before you cast aspersions on the victims of violence based on their surviving that violence, you should ask yourself whether you have ever been in such a stressful situation yourself.

This is the PDF girl in Max's post, who did not resist rape and lived. Could she have died if she resisted rape and fought? May be.. may be not. But she would have not let her rapists easily violate her. I would have fought.
I disagree that Sohaila did not resist rape. She describes how she did resist. She did not "let her rapists easily violate her." If Jyoti Pandey had lived through her ordeal, perhaps you would be suggesting that just because she lived, she somehow did not resist enough. This is nothing but blaming the victim.

why don't you stop stealing your employer's time and get back to work? max can argue this out with southindian; he doesn't need your help. you are not obliged to respond to every post here. i read the article that max posted. i agree with nearly everything the author and rape victim wrote.

by Hellsangel Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:26 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:why don't you stop stealing your employer's time and get back to work? max can argue this out with southindian; he doesn't need your help. you are not obliged to respond to every post here. i read the article that max posted. i agree with nearly everything the author and rape victim wrote.

My, the old dog is in a cranky mood. Looks like his laxatives did not work today!

by Guest Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:30 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:why don't you stop stealing your employer's time and get back to work? max can argue this out with southindian; he doesn't need your help. you are not obliged to respond to every post here. i read the article that max posted. i agree with nearly everything the author and rape victim wrote.

My, the old dog is in a cranky mood. Looks like his laxatives did not work today!

Sicko, your family failed you when raising you.

by Hellsangel Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:31 pm

Rashmun wrote:

Sicko, your family failed you when raising you.

So sweet! The puppy comes to the old dog's rescue!

by Guest Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:32 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

Sicko, your family failed you when raising you.

~~So sweet! The puppy comes to the old dog's rescue!~~ My family taught me that puppies like me should be allowed to bite bigger dogs

*Corrected*

by Hellsangel Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:34 pm

Rashmun wrote:My family taught me that puppies like me should be allowed to bite bigger dogs

When did you bite the old dog?

by Guest Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:35 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Rashmun wrote:My family taught me that puppies like me should be allowed to bite bigger dogs

When did ~~you~~ I bite the old dog?

The point is that you should be showing more respect to someone who is as old as your father in keeping with Indian tradition.

by Hellsangel Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:36 pm

Rashmun wrote:

When did I bite the old dog?

The point is that you should be showing more respect to someone who is as old as your father in keeping with Indian tradition.

Yes. When did you?

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:36 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:why don't you stop stealing your employer's time and get back to work? max can argue this out with southindian; he doesn't need your help. you are not obliged to respond to every post here. i read the article that max posted. i agree with nearly everything the author and rape victim wrote.

My, the old dog is in a cranky mood. Looks like his laxatives did not work today!

Sicko, your family failed you when raising you.

rashmun, please be kind to l'angelo lesbica. his parents were too busy attending rss meetings in their khaki shorts to spend any time raising him.

by Guest Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:37 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:why don't you stop stealing your employer's time and get back to work? max can argue this out with southindian; he doesn't need your help. you are not obliged to respond to every post here. i read the article that max posted. i agree with nearly everything the author and rape victim wrote.

My, the old dog is in a cranky mood. Looks like his laxatives did not work today!

Sicko, your family failed you when raising you.
rashmun, please be kind to l'angelo lesbica. his parents were too busy attending rss meetings in their khaki shorts to spend any time raising him.

Why did the dravid girls kick his teeth out on chat?

by Hellsangel Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:38 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote: his parents were too busy attending rss meetings in their khaki shorts to spend any time raising him.

Ah! Old dog,your parents dropped you on your head when you were a baby! They didn't have to bother much after that.

by Guest Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:39 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote: his parents were too busy attending rss meetings in their khaki shorts to spend any time raising him.

Ah! Old dog,~~your~~ my parents dropped ~~you~~ me on ~~your~~ my head when ~~you were~~ I was a baby! They didn't have to bother much after that.

*Corrected*

by Hellsangel Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:40 pm

Rashmun wrote:

Ah! Old dog,my parents dropped me on my head when I was a baby! They didn't have to bother much after that.

You too?

by Guest Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:41 pm

Hellsangel wrote:

Ah! Old dog,my parents dropped me on my head when I was a baby! They didn't have to bother much after that.

You too?

No. Just you.

by Hellsangel Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:42 pm

Rashmun wrote:
No. Just you.

Aww! Such loyalty to the old dog!

by Idéfix Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:43 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:why don't you stop stealing your employer's time and get back to work? max can argue this out with southindian; he doesn't need your help. you are not obliged to respond to every post here. i read the article that max posted. i agree with nearly everything the author and rape victim wrote.

I note -- with a not insignificant amount of satisfaction -- that my posts here seem to make you angry and upset.

by Guest Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:43 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
No. Just you.

Aww! ~~Such~~ my loyalty to the old dog Charvaka does not impress you?

No.

by Hellsangel Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:45 pm

Rashmun wrote:

Aww! ~~Such~~ my loyalty to the old dog Charvaka does not impress you?

No.

Looks like you and the old dog are both obsessed with the great glut admin.

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