The western music of Muthuswami Dikshitar

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:22 pm

http://www.indiacurrents.com/articles/2012/11/15/western-music-muthuswami-dikshitar

Those familiar with Indian classical music are aware of the raga-centered nature of the art.

Those with even a peripheral awareness of Karnatik music are bound to know that much of what is heard in a kutcheri or concert is centered around the raga-based kritis (compositions) written by a trio of composers Swami Tyagaraja, Muthuswami Dikshitar and Syama Sastri, popularly referred to as the trinity. Over 400 kritis are attributed to Dikshitar, over 700 to Tyagaraja and about a 100 to Syama Sastri. While the latter two wrote largely in Telugu, the former wrote mostly in Sanskrit.

Would anyone believe it if they were told that one of the “trinity” created a large body of compositions based on western music? And that too, back in the early 1800s way before the advent of “fusion music?”

Yes, there is indeed a repertoire of “lesser-known” compositions based on western musical ideas attributed to the orthodox composer Dikshitar. A set of 39 compositions—all based on colonial tunes that came to India with the British East India Company written by Dikshitar.

These compositions known as nottusvara sahityas (lyrics) came into being when Dikshitar wrote Sanskrit lyrics to the western tunes that he heard during his family’s sojourn at Manali near modern day Chennai.

The beauty of these nottuswara sahityas lies in the fact that the introduction of Sanskrit lyrics into Western melodic themes has not resulted in something jarring or incongruous; on the other hand, these compositions are uniquely Indian, although devoid of the characteristic gamakas that decorate Indian melodic passages.

by Hellsangel Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:03 pm

by Hellsangel Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:08 pm

This one and the one above for your listening pleasure, Il Professore. Please feel free to comment.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:36 pm

i am aware of these nottuswarams and they are certainly a departure from MD's usual aesthetic. i've heard my aunt mention that these were written for children. my own theory is that he was experimenting with the western violin, or it could have been one of the tanjore quartet who learned from him, or his brother baluswami, and before he or his disciples launched themselves into the western violin, he was testing the waters so to say. and he wrote these to play and learn on the violin as step one. i can't be sure; this is just my own personal theory.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:00 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am aware of these nottuswarams and they are certainly a departure from MD's usual aesthetic. i've heard my aunt mention that these were written for children. my own theory is that he was experimenting with the western violin, or it could have been one of the tanjore quartet who learned from him, or his brother baluswami, and before he or his disciples launched themselves into the western violin, he was testing the waters so to say. and he wrote these to play and learn on the violin as step one. i can't be sure; this is just my own personal theory.

in other words, you are speculating. And yet when others do some speculation you have occasionally been found to give an ugly display of temper.

by bw Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:34 pm

ayyo - UK too now?

by Idéfix Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:45 pm

bw wrote:ayyo - UK too now?

The shareholding pattern of CM seems very murky. Lots of cross-holdings, like Korean chaebols. Based on my extensive internet research, my view is that that Kashmir, Maharashtra, UP, and the UK are the primary owners. They just outsourced the drudgery of musical and lyrical composition, learning, teaching, and performance to their captive facilities in southern India. This is my tentative view, which I am going to repeat 108 times a day until I begin to believe it myself.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:48 pm

panini press wrote:
bw wrote:ayyo - UK too now?
The shareholding pattern of CM seems very murky. Lots of cross-holdings, like Korean chaebols. Based on my extensive internet research, my view is that that Kashmir, Maharashtra, UP, and the UK are the primary owners. They just outsourced the drudgery of musical and lyrical composition, learning, teaching, and performance to their captive facilities in southern India. This is my tentative view, which I am going to repeat 108 times a day until I begin to believe it myself.

TMB writhing in agony and anger.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:59 pm

when i am speculating i say so clearly without a sense of conclusiveness and no expectation on my part for the reader to buy into it. an example of something i would not do is to state as fact that the founders of BN were kashmiris.

for the most part, when i speculate, it is about something in which i have developed an informed perspective through long listening and/or study.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:54 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:when i am speculating i say so clearly without a sense of conclusiveness and no expectation on my part for the reader to buy into it. an example of something i would not do is to state as fact that the founders of BN were kashmiris.

for the most part, when i speculate, it is about something in which i have developed an informed perspective through long listening and/or study.

According to tamil tradition Bharatha Muni was a Kashmiri and the most renowned commentary on the Naatya Shastra is the one by Abhinavagupta who was a Kashmiri. It is also a fact that Abhinavagupta, who was based in Kashmir, was having students from Tamil Nadu like the tamil scholar Madhuraja.

So my speculation was based on some concrete facts; it was not idle chit chat.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:58 pm

the problem is equating BN in its modern form to what is written in the naatya shastra and claiming that the two are identical.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:02 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the problem is equating BN in its modern form to what is written in the naatya shastra and claiming that the two are identical.

I will agree that BN in its modern form must have undergone many improvisations and modifications. But even Tamilians claim that temples like the Nataraja temple and the Thanjavur temple have sculptures depicting postures from the Naatya Shastra, and they also say that these postures are easily identifiable as BN postures. If I am wrong about this I am ready to be corrected.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:11 pm

here is a question to answer: what are the minimum set of rules, aesthetic criteria, and performance elements that together constitute what we know today as BN?

here is another question: who is in a position to answer question #1? as far as i know there is only one person on this board qualified to do that. i hope she'll take a crack at it.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:16 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:here is a question to answer: what are the minimum set of rules, aesthetic criteria, and performance elements that together constitute what we know today as BN?

here is another question: who is in a position to answer question #1? as far as i know there is only one person on this board qualified to do that. i hope she'll take a crack at it.

This seems to be a case of going off on a tangent. What needs to be answered is:

Do the Nataraja, Thanjavur, and other temples have sculptures portraying postures from the Naatya Shastra which are also identifiable as BN postures?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:19 pm

there are many problems with the repeated references to the temple sculpture alone.

1) problem #1: is it provable that the sculptors were informed solely by the naatyashastra?

2) problem #2: how can a static sculpture inform us about nrtta or pure rhythm which is a central aspect in BN?

there are other problems, but let's start with these two.

the questions posed earlier were not idle questions. we need answers to the questions in the earlier post to make conclusions about kashmiris as the founders of BN.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:27 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there are many problems with the repeated references to the temple sculpture alone.

1) problem #1: is it provable that the sculptors were informed solely by the naatyashastra?

2) problem #2: how can a static sculpture inform us about nrtta or pure rhythm which is a central aspect in BN?

there are other problems, but let's start with these two.

With respect to point 1, in the Nataja temple the precise posture described in the Naatya Shastra is engraved or carved along with the posture itself. This is not done for the Thanjavur temple and other temples but experts agree that they are depicting postures from the Naatya Shastra. We do not know of any other influences.

The fact that Nataraja temple postures are specifically referring to the Naatya Shastra when describing themselves seems sufficient evidence.

With respect to point 2, the answer is it cannot. I have never denied that improvisations and modifications must have taken place down the ages. And yet the standard postures would have remained fairly rigid. The improvisation would be in the movement.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:28 pm

amplifying on what i said earlier, the quantized energy levels (naatya shastra) discovered by planck was an important starting point in QM, but QM as it is known today which includes the whole gamut of wave mechanics, matrix formulation, uncertainty principle, and operator mechanics all discovered by messers schrodinger, heisenberg, and dirac (analogous to present day BN) would be unrecognizable to planck.

who gets to decide what we mean when we use the term QM (BN)? the obvious answer to me is the practicing physicist (BN performer).

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:31 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:amplifying on what i said earlier, the quantized energy levels (naatya shastra) discovered by planck was an important starting point in QM, but QM as it is known today which includes the whole gamut of wave mechanics, matrix formulation, uncertainty principle, and operator mechanics all discovered by messers schrodinger, heisenberg, and dirac (analogous to present day BN) would be unrecognizable to planck.

who gets to decide what we mean when we use the term QM (BN)? the obvious answer to me is the practicing physicist (BN performer).

The analogy does not hold true because the static postures described in the Naatya Shastra and depicted in tamil temples have remained rigid, frozen in time as it were. It is only in movement that variation has taken place and different styles have evolved.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:32 pm

i'd like to see some links and actual articles by experts who agree and say there have been no other influences beyond naatya shastra. in particular i'd like to see someone say that the work of the tanjore quartet is not central to what we know today as BN.

it's not just a question of improvisations and modifications. rhythm (nrtta) is to BN as breath is to life. a sculpture is incapable of informing us about this foundational aspect of BN.

i'm going to leave it at this now until i see some more cogent reasoning from the other side and/or the one expert here decides to post in this thread.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:34 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:amplifying on what i said earlier, the quantized energy levels (naatya shastra) discovered by planck was an important starting point in QM, but QM as it is known today which includes the whole gamut of wave mechanics, matrix formulation, uncertainty principle, and operator mechanics all discovered by messers schrodinger, heisenberg, and dirac (analogous to present day BN) would be unrecognizable to planck.

who gets to decide what we mean when we use the term QM (BN)? the obvious answer to me is the practicing physicist (BN performer).

The analogy does not hold true because the static postures described in the Naatya Shastra and depicted in tamil temples have remained rigid, frozen in time as it were. It is only in movement that variation has taken place and different styles have evolved.

A good analogy with BN would be yoga. sure there are different styles of yoga like iyengar yoga, bikram yoga, etc. but there is a certain rigidity and inflexibility about how a particular asana is performed.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:41 pm

and i find the notion that movement is mere detail hilarious! what then is the difference between sculpture and dance?

by bw Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:42 pm

ok, i am now curious about BN and natyashastra and am doing my own internet research.

i find this entry - is this correct?

-----------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_classical_dance

A dance style is classical to the extent it incorporates the Natya
Shastra techniques. Some of the styles such as Kathak use very few
elements found in Natya Shastra. Other art dances yet to be conferred as classical dances, whose theories and techniques can also be traced back to the Natya Shastra are:

Andhra Natyam - Telugu art dance
Vilasini Nrityam/Natyam - Telugu art dance
Kerala Natanam - Kerala classical dance

Out of the nine recognized dance forms, the only two temple dance
styles that have their origin in Natya Shastra and are prescribed by the
Agamas are Bharata Natyam and Odissi. These two most faithfully adhere
to the Natya Shastra but currently do not include Vaachikaabhinaya
(dialog acts), although some styles of Bharata Natyam, such as Melattur
style, prescribe the lip and eye movements indicating Vaachikaabhinaya.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:45 pm

Movement is important but there are certain classical postures described in the Naatya Shastra which have remained frozen in time as it were and remain an integral part of BN. These postures have also been depicted in several temples in TN.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:49 pm

bw wrote:ok, i am now curious about BN and natyashastra and am doing my own internet research.

i find this entry - is this correct?

-----------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_classical_dance

A dance style is classical to the extent it incorporates the Natya
Shastra techniques. Some of the styles such as Kathak use very few
elements found in Natya Shastra. Other art dances yet to be conferred as classical dances, whose theories and techniques can also be traced back to the Natya Shastra are:

Andhra Natyam - Telugu art dance
Vilasini Nrityam/Natyam - Telugu art dance
Kerala Natanam - Kerala classical dance
Out of the nine recognized dance forms, the only two temple dance
styles that have their origin in Natya Shastra and are prescribed by the
Agamas are Bharata Natyam and Odissi. These two most faithfully adhere
to the Natya Shastra but currently do not include Vaachikaabhinaya
(dialog acts), although some styles of Bharata Natyam, such as Melattur
style, prescribe the lip and eye movements indicating Vaachikaabhinaya.

I would agree with respect to the connection of BN and Kathak with Naatya Shastra. It is speculated that Kathak used to follow Naatya Shastra more closely than it does today. the change is said to have come about because of tremendous persian influence.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:24 pm

bw wrote:ok, i am now curious about BN and natyashastra and am doing my own internet research.

i find this entry - is this correct?

-----------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_classical_dance

A dance style is classical to the extent it incorporates the Natya
Shastra techniques. Some of the styles such as Kathak use very few
elements found in Natya Shastra. Other art dances yet to be conferred as classical dances, whose theories and techniques can also be traced back to the Natya Shastra are:

Andhra Natyam - Telugu art dance
Vilasini Nrityam/Natyam - Telugu art dance
Kerala Natanam - Kerala classical dance
Out of the nine recognized dance forms, the only two temple dance
styles that have their origin in Natya Shastra and are prescribed by the
Agamas are Bharata Natyam and Odissi. These two most faithfully adhere
to the Natya Shastra but currently do not include Vaachikaabhinaya
(dialog acts), although some styles of Bharata Natyam, such as Melattur
style, prescribe the lip and eye movements indicating Vaachikaabhinaya.

so this is where the question of at what point in an art's development has it matured enough to be considered a separate artistic species arises. this is similar to the question of the relationship between a unicellular organism and a complex and organized life form. at point do you say a new species has been created (or formed through natural selection depending on your particular leaning)?

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:29 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:ok, i am now curious about BN and natyashastra and am doing my own internet research.

i find this entry - is this correct?

-----------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_classical_dance

A dance style is classical to the extent it incorporates the Natya
Shastra techniques. Some of the styles such as Kathak use very few
elements found in Natya Shastra. Other art dances yet to be conferred as classical dances, whose theories and techniques can also be traced back to the Natya Shastra are:

Andhra Natyam - Telugu art dance
Vilasini Nrityam/Natyam - Telugu art dance
Kerala Natanam - Kerala classical dance
Out of the nine recognized dance forms, the only two temple dance
styles that have their origin in Natya Shastra and are prescribed by the
Agamas are Bharata Natyam and Odissi. These two most faithfully adhere
to the Natya Shastra but currently do not include Vaachikaabhinaya
(dialog acts), although some styles of Bharata Natyam, such as Melattur
style, prescribe the lip and eye movements indicating Vaachikaabhinaya.

so this is where the question of at what point in an art's development has it matured enough to be considered a separate artistic species arises. this is similar to the question of the relationship between a unicellular organism and a complex and organized life form. at point do you say a new species has been created (or formed through natural selection depending on your particular leaning)?

To be considered a separate art form (separate from Naatya Shastra) BN would have to start violating the rules given by Bharatha Muni. All the improvisations and modifications in BN have been within the original framework given by Bharatha Muni.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:34 pm

there is a logical fallacy in the latest spewage from gonepostalman. if we accept that odissi and BN are two separate art forms, and they contain nothing other than what is in the naatya shastra, why are they identified as two separate forms of art? why don't we just call them both naatya shastra and leave it at that?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:42 pm

another way to frame this question is if you are an intelligent being from another planet and were handed the naatya shastra and nothing else today, can you build a recital that is likely to be called a BN performance by those skilled in the art?

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:43 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is a logical fallacy in the latest spewage from gonepostalman. if we accept that odissi and BN are two separate art forms, and they contain nothing other than what is in the naatya shastra, why are they identified as two separate forms of art? why don't we just call them both naatya shastra and leave it at that?

There is even difference *within* BN as is evident from the different styles of BN in existence.

I am unfortunately not knowledgeable about Odissi to compare it with BN nor do I know the extent of its adherence to the rules given by Bharatha Muni.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:46 pm

another way to frame this question is if you are an intelligent being from another planet and were handed the naatya shastra and nothing else today, can you build a recital that is likely to be called a BN performance by those skilled in the art?

The answer is No because you will not have sufficient knowledge about movement which has been passed down from guru to shishya.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:03 pm

Bhedas and eye movements
Bharata Natyam technique includes many other elements, such as elaborate neck and eye movements.
While Natya Shastra contains the largest number of the movements, and the most detailed descriptions, Abhinaya Darpanam, for instance, has defined only nine head movements, four neck movement and eight eye movements (compared with 36 of Natya Shastra) which are used extensively throughout the dance.....

The gestures used in nritta are called nritta hastas, and are described in detail as part of karanas in Natya Shastra. Few Bharata Natyam schools use the full range of these. Many hastas can be used in more than one way, depending on the song accompanying the dance, and what the dancer is trying to convey to the audience.

http://bhajanas.blogspot.com/p/bharata-natyam.html?m=1

The above lays to rest the claim that comparing Bharatha Muni's Naatya Shastra to BN is akin to comparing Ancient Greek science with modern science.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:08 pm

Rashmun wrote:Bhedas and eye movements
Bharata Natyam technique includes many other elements, such as elaborate neck and eye movements.
While Natya Shastra contains the largest number of the movements, and the most detailed descriptions, Abhinaya Darpanam, for instance, has defined only nine head movements, four neck movement and eight eye movements (compared with 36 of Natya Shastra) which are used extensively throughout the dance.....

The gestures used in nritta are called nritta hastas, and are described in detail as part of karanas in Natya Shastra. Few Bharata Natyam schools use the full range of these. Many hastas can be used in more than one way, depending on the song accompanying the dance, and what the dancer is trying to convey to the audience.

http://bhajanas.blogspot.com/p/bharata-natyam.html?m=1

The above lays to rest the claim that comparing Bharatha Muni's Naatya Shastra to BN is akin to comparing Ancient Greek science with modern science.

In certain respects BN comes across as being a subset of what is described in the Naatya Shastra. This is a possible reason for the division between Odissi (which may be following a different subset) and BN.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:15 pm

i found this ph.d. thesis during my recent wanderings. i had meant to post it. it seems interesting, but somewhat uneven in quality. still it covers a whole lot of essential recorded facts:

development of sadir in the court of raja serofji II of tanjore.

in particular it has a whole chapter on the contributions of the TQ.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:24 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am aware of these nottuswarams and they are certainly a departure from MD's usual aesthetic. i've heard my aunt mention that these were written for children. my own theory is that he was experimenting with the western violin, or it could have been one of the tanjore quartet who learned from him, or his brother baluswami, and before he or his disciples launched themselves into the western violin, he was testing the waters so to say. and he wrote these to play and learn on the violin as step one. i can't be sure; this is just my own personal theory.

in other words, you are speculating. And yet when others do some speculation you have occasionally been found to give an ugly display of temper.

Oh reaalllly?

What did you say in YOUR OWN words in the first post of your thread? were you speculating "the whole blog", stating your opinion or was it a Statement of Fact?

Can you please clarify at the end of your every post and link/paste?...

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:25 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am aware of these nottuswarams and they are certainly a departure from MD's usual aesthetic. i've heard my aunt mention that these were written for children. my own theory is that he was experimenting with the western violin, or it could have been one of the tanjore quartet who learned from him, or his brother baluswami, and before he or his disciples launched themselves into the western violin, he was testing the waters so to say. and he wrote these to play and learn on the violin as step one. i can't be sure; this is just my own personal theory.

in other words, you are speculating. And yet when others do some speculation you have occasionally been found to give an ugly display of temper.

Oh reaalllly?

What did you say in YOUR OWN words in the first post of your thread? were you speculating "the whole blog", stating your opinion or was it a Statement of Fact?

Can you please clarify at the end of your every post and link/paste?...

Buzz off.

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