classical art form

by yogi Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:00 am

How do we define any art form as classical?
Do we consider an art form classical because it requires great deal of skill acquired through long years of training or because it is performed through certain rules that are laid down and variations aren't encouraged?
Can someone shed light upon this?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:38 am

auro wrote:How do we define any art form as classical?
Do we consider an art form classical because it requires great deal of skill acquired through long years of training or because it is performed through certain rules that are laid down and variations aren't encouraged?
Can someone shed light upon this?

i don't know what the word classical implies, but indian classical music (both genres) will certainly fail that test. there is a tremendous amount of extempore creativity in ICM.

by yogi Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:53 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
auro wrote:How do we define any art form as classical?
Do we consider an art form classical because it requires great deal of skill acquired through long years of training or because it is performed through certain rules that are laid down and variations aren't encouraged?
Can someone shed light upon this?

i don't know what the word classical implies, but indian classical music (both genres) will certainly fail that test. there is a tremendous amount of extempore creativity in ICM.

Yeah.But when we talk about dance forms in particular we only have 8 dance forms that have classical status.On what basis do they confer the classical status?

by Impedimenta Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:20 am

auro wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
auro wrote:How do we define any art form as classical?
Do we consider an art form classical because it requires great deal of skill acquired through long years of training or because it is performed through certain rules that are laid down and variations aren't encouraged?
Can someone shed light upon this?

i don't know what the word classical implies, but indian classical music (both genres) will certainly fail that test. there is a tremendous amount of extempore creativity in ICM.
Yeah.But when we talk about dance forms in particular we only have 8 dance forms that have classical status.On what basis do they confer the classical status?

oh, ask a poster here who goes by a name that starts with R and ends with N and has "ashmu" in the middle. HE collaborated with wikipedia and co-wrote a text called natyashastra. he thinks he is the re incarnation of "bharat" [note, without the "h" in the end] muni[not sure if this is a bad word].

by Guest Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:27 am

Auro, I get this mild mild feeling that you post questions that you already know the answers to. Or you know what people will respond, so that you can drop your next premeditated question. Why do I get this mild mild feeling?

by Hellsangel Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:55 am

Vidya Bagchi wrote:Auro, I get this mild mild feeling that you post questions that you already know the answers to. Or you know what people will respond, so that you can drop your next premeditated question. Why do I get this mild mild feeling?

That would be the definition of a :

classical art form Troll

by yogi Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:14 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:Auro, I get this mild mild feeling that you post questions that you already know the answers to. Or you know what people will respond, so that you can drop your next premeditated question. Why do I get this mild mild feeling?

hahah why would i do that vidya bagchi?i don't know about how you get that feeling but sorry i post the questions honestly.
I don't know why but i get the feeling that you guys over here aren't ready to accept newbies.Some post that i'm an oldie of this forum and some say i'm invited by panini press to help him.
If this forum is strictly for oldies and that too NRIs then i would be happy to leave.

by Guest Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:21 pm

how old are you, auro?

by Rekz Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:28 pm

Auro baby i believe u ...
The scene is these uncles n anuties are well settled, they can afford to waste time here...u r studying..so don't get addictive here Smile

Focus on ur studies.

p.s. u can call me Rekz akka.

by Idéfix Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:30 pm

auro wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:Auro, I get this mild mild feeling that you post questions that you already know the answers to. Or you know what people will respond, so that you can drop your next premeditated question. Why do I get this mild mild feeling?
hahah why would i do that vidya bagchi?i don't know about how you get that feeling but sorry i post the questions honestly.
I don't know why but i get the feeling that you guys over here aren't ready to accept newbies.Some post that i'm an oldie of this forum and some say i'm invited by panini press to help him.
If this forum is strictly for oldies and that too NRIs then i would be happy to leave.

Auro, there is a strong element of poking fun at each other on this forum. And we extend that courtesy to newcomers as well. When someone says you were invited to help me, he is making fun of someone else altogether, not you. Because the group has been around for so long, we always have our suspicions when new members show up -- that they are some existing member pretending to be new. That's where the oldie thing comes from. If you spend more time here, you will understand more of these dynamics.

This forum is certainly not only for NRIs -- there are several regular members who post from India. It is also not only for oldies.

On your original question, I suspect there is no real good definition. How long ago the art form was documented / formalized in its current structure is likely the strongest indicator.

PS: It would make it easier for me to read your posts if you typed a space after your punctuation marks (full stops/periods, commas, question marks, etc.)

by yogi Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:31 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:how old are you, auro?

21

by yogi Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:32 pm

Rekz wrote:Auro baby i believe u ...
The scene is these uncles n anuties are well settled, they can afford to waste time here...u r studying..so don't get addictive here
Focus on ur studies.

p.s. u can call me Rekz akka.

ok sister

by yogi Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:36 pm

panini press wrote:
auro wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:Auro, I get this mild mild feeling that you post questions that you already know the answers to. Or you know what people will respond, so that you can drop your next premeditated question. Why do I get this mild mild feeling?
hahah why would i do that vidya bagchi?i don't know about how you get that feeling but sorry i post the questions honestly.
I don't know why but i get the feeling that you guys over here aren't ready to accept newbies.Some post that i'm an oldie of this forum and some say i'm invited by panini press to help him.
If this forum is strictly for oldies and that too NRIs then i would be happy to leave.
Auro, there is a strong element of poking fun at each other on this forum. And we extend that courtesy to newcomers as well. When someone says you were invited to help me, he is making fun of someone else altogether, not you. Because the group has been around for so long, we always have our suspicions when new members show up -- that they are some existing member pretending to be new. That's where the oldie thing comes from. If you spend more time here, you will understand more of these dynamics.

This forum is certainly not only for NRIs -- there are several regular members who post from India. It is also not only for oldies.

On your original question, I suspect there is no real good definition. How long ago the art form was documented / formalized in its current structure is likely the strongest indicator.

PS: It would make it easier for me to read your posts if you typed a space after your punctuation marks (full stops/periods, commas, question marks, etc.)

Thanks for your detailed explanation.I would keep in mind these things.

by Rekz Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:41 pm

panini press wrote:
auro wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:Auro, I get this mild mild feeling that you post questions that you already know the answers to. Or you know what people will respond, so that you can drop your next premeditated question. Why do I get this mild mild feeling?
hahah why would i do that vidya bagchi?i don't know about how you get that feeling but sorry i post the questions honestly.
I don't know why but i get the feeling that you guys over here aren't ready to accept newbies.Some post that i'm an oldie of this forum and some say i'm invited by panini press to help him.
If this forum is strictly for oldies and that too NRIs then i would be happy to leave.
Auro, there is a strong element of poking fun at each other on this forum. And we extend that courtesy to newcomers as well. When someone says you were invited to help me, he is making fun of someone else altogether, not you. Because the group has been around for so long, we always have our suspicions when new members show up -- that the
y are some existing member pretending to be new. That's where the oldie thing comes from. If you spend more time here, you will understand more of these dynamics.

This forum is certainly not only for NRIs -- there are several regular members who post from India. It is also not only for oldies.

On your original question, I suspect there is no real good definition. How long ago the art form was documented / formalized in its current structure is likely the strongest indicator.

PS: It would make it easier for me to read your posts if you typed a space after your punctuation marks (full stops/periods, commas, question marks, etc.)

For the very first time im deeply e-hurt. Gult admin, u were never cho chweet to me like this when i was new...just cos he is from nizam...not fairrrrrrrrr Sad

by Idéfix Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:43 pm

Rekz wrote:
panini press wrote:
auro wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:Auro, I get this mild mild feeling that you post questions that you already know the answers to. Or you know what people will respond, so that you can drop your next premeditated question. Why do I get this mild mild feeling?
hahah why would i do that vidya bagchi?i don't know about how you get that feeling but sorry i post the questions honestly.
I don't know why but i get the feeling that you guys over here aren't ready to accept newbies.Some post that i'm an oldie of this forum and some say i'm invited by panini press to help him.
If this forum is strictly for oldies and that too NRIs then i would be happy to leave.
Auro, there is a strong element of poking fun at each other on this forum. And we extend that courtesy to newcomers as well. When someone says you were invited to help me, he is making fun of someone else altogether, not you. Because the group has been around for so long, we always have our suspicions when new members show up -- that the
y are some existing member pretending to be new. That's where the oldie thing comes from. If you spend more time here, you will understand more of these dynamics.

This forum is certainly not only for NRIs -- there are several regular members who post from India. It is also not only for oldies.

On your original question, I suspect there is no real good definition. How long ago the art form was documented / formalized in its current structure is likely the strongest indicator.

PS: It would make it easier for me to read your posts if you typed a space after your punctuation marks (full stops/periods, commas, question marks, etc.)

For the very first time im deeply e-hurt. Gult admin, u were never cho chweet to me like this when i was new...just cos he is from nizam...not fairrrrrrrrr

Ayyo, I was not admin when you were new, Rekzu. I was just one of the people picking on the newcomers back then. Now I try to be nicer.

by Hellsangel Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:44 pm

auro wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:how old are you, auro?
21

Forever?

by yogi Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:00 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
auro wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:how old are you, auro?
21
Forever?

No macha it keeps changing every second.
yeah i may be emotionally 21 forever. Cool

by Guest Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:01 pm

auro wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
auro wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:how old are you, auro?
21
Forever?
No macha it keeps changing every second.
yeah i may be emotionally 21 forever.

that's pretty mature. most of us here are emotionally about 13. some are 10.

by yogi Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:03 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:
auro wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
auro wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:how old are you, auro?
21
Forever?
No macha it keeps changing every second.
yeah i may be emotionally 21 forever.

that's pretty mature. most of us here are emotionally about 13. some are 10.

I can see that!

by bw Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:03 pm

auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?

by Idéfix Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:05 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:
auro wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
auro wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:how old are you, auro?
21
Forever?
No macha it keeps changing every second.
yeah i may be emotionally 21 forever.

that's pretty mature. most of us here are emotionally about 13. some are 10.

And then there are the complicated and volatile cases like me. I have been described as between 4 and 13 emotionally. I believe my emotional age varies from day to day, leading the same poster to change his estimate of my emotional age considerably.

by Idéfix Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:05 pm

bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?

Why "unfit?"

PS: I stopped fighting the unkil appellation as of early 2013.

by Guest Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:07 pm

panini press wrote:
bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?
Why "unfit?"

PS: I stopped fighting the unkil appellation as of early 2013.

omg, u will be what, 37 or 38 this spring? ab to good news suna do.

by Hellsangel Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:07 pm

panini press wrote:
bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?
Why "unfit?"

PS: I stopped fighting the unkil appellation as of early 2013.

You know, the whiskey drinking types.

by bw Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:09 pm

panini press wrote:
bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?
Why "unfit?"

i apologize, i didn't know you were one of those slim and lithe unkils.

by yogi Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:12 pm

bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?

May be desire is not the right word bw. you can say inclination. well i never thought about that.

by ashaNirasha Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:14 pm

bw wrote:
panini press wrote:
bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?
Why "unfit?"

i apologize, i didn't know you were one of those slim and lithe unkils.

'Virile' is the word this forum prefers, I think.

by Hellsangel Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:15 pm

bw wrote:
panini press wrote:
bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?
Why "unfit?"

i apologize, i didn't know you were one of those slim and lithe unkils.

Are you fit, Lucy?

by Idéfix Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:18 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:
panini press wrote:
bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?
Why "unfit?"

PS: I stopped fighting the unkil appellation as of early 2013.

omg, u will be what, 37 or 38 this spring? ab to good news suna do.

Wife graduated last year and is relatively new at her job. But yes, the clock is ticking.

by Idéfix Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:20 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
panini press wrote:
bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?
Why "unfit?"

PS: I stopped fighting the unkil appellation as of early 2013.
You know, the whiskey drinking types.

Haha, true, whiskified Indians are typically less fit than beerized Indians.

On a completely different note, I stopped drinking whiskey rather randomly. Now I am drinking mostly red wines and raki/ouzo. Not sure how long this phase will last.

by Idéfix Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:22 pm

bw wrote:
panini press wrote:
bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?
Why "unfit?"

i apologize, i didn't know you were one of those slim and lithe unkils.

I'd rather be unfit than be agile, slim, and lithe.

by bw Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:23 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
bw wrote:
panini press wrote:
bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?
Why "unfit?"

i apologize, i didn't know you were one of those slim and lithe unkils.

Are you fit, Lucy?

you tell me - is a person who regularly runs 10K fit?

by Guest Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:24 pm

I barely had any alcohol in last 3-4 months. I used to drink 1-2 times/week last year. Guess the last time I drank was when my bil made me something vodka, I think around holidays. In my case, it's all about company. Can't drink by myself.

by Guest Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:34 pm

bw wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
bw wrote:
panini press wrote:
bw wrote:auro, why this desire to interact with us unfit unkils and aunties?
Why "unfit?"

i apologize, i didn't know you were one of those slim and lithe unkils.

Are you fit, Lucy?

you tell me - is a person who regularly runs 10K fit?

is ur 10k mile charity run or something over?

by Idéfix Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:37 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:
bw wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
bw wrote:
panini press wrote:Why "unfit?"

i apologize, i didn't know you were one of those slim and lithe unkils.

Are you fit, Lucy?

you tell me - is a person who regularly runs 10K fit?

is ur 10k mile charity run or something over?

I really hope she doesn't regularly run 10k miles.

by Guest Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:38 pm

panini press wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:
bw wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
bw wrote:

i apologize, i didn't know you were one of those slim and lithe unkils.

Are you fit, Lucy?

you tell me - is a person who regularly runs 10K fit?

is ur 10k mile charity run or something over?
I really hope she doesn't regularly run 10k miles.

lol.. 10k.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:38 pm

- old
- undergone generations of evolution
- has developed a structure and a grammar
- features are distinct and recognizable
- not open to capricious and superficial experimentation

these are some thoughts i have about the word classical as it applies to the performing arts. having a structure and a grammar in and of itself to me does not translate to rigidity and ossification.

by bw Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:46 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:
bw wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
bw wrote:
panini press wrote:Why "unfit?"

i apologize, i didn't know you were one of those slim and lithe unkils.

Are you fit, Lucy?

you tell me - is a person who regularly runs 10K fit?

is ur 10k mile charity run or something over?

there is the annual 10K charity event coming up. been preparing for it for a while now.

by bw Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:07 am

classical - stuff that snooty people feel compelled to appreciate to maintain their snooty status

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:32 am

bw wrote:classical - stuff that snooty people feel compelled to appreciate to maintain their snooty status

does this also include art movies by east european directors with hard to pronounce names?

by bw Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:41 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:classical - stuff that snooty people feel compelled to appreciate to maintain their snooty status

does this also include art movies by east european directors with hard to pronounce names?

no, that's just fine taste in movies.

by Guest Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:46 am

bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:classical - stuff that snooty people feel compelled to appreciate to maintain their snooty status

does this also include art movies by east european directors with hard to pronounce names?

no, that's just fine taste in movies.

The same argument could be given by aficionados of music.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:13 am

bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:classical - stuff that snooty people feel compelled to appreciate to maintain their snooty status

does this also include art movies by east european directors with hard to pronounce names?

no, that's just fine taste in movies.

i see so one kind of discernment is just fine taste, and another is snobbery. i see it all now.

at least the individuals putting out the product i like have names which don't result in a sprained tongue.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:22 am

IMO the tambrahms record on CM and BN is overall positive, but they certainly have a poor record, being the establishment and therefore sitting atop the power structure of CM and BN, in nurturing other caste members who have traditionally been in the music and dance business like the devadasis, and like the othuvars. in fact IMO they have done a bit of damage to these people's livelihoods.

by Guest Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:25 am

Makes me think caste system is much stronger in si.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:29 am

Vidya Bagchi wrote:Makes me think caste system is much stronger in si.

no it has just played out differently.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:32 am

in the tambrahms' defense one could say that they were responsible for building artistic institutions within TN. this is kind of like the preference given to patrician anglo-saxons in the ivy leagues. they built it up from scratch, so they get preferential treatment.

by Guest Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:40 am

am not offending or defending anyone. Just an observation. NI has caste system too, for reservations, marriages, and maybe when favoring in business/offices. In arts and all, it's sorta non existant. Language or region demarcation is there to some extent, for example marathi theatre, or bong literature, or punjabi or rajasthani folk, or brij movies, etc. It (language/region) plays out again in office promotions or business too. But otherwise, it's free for all, when it comes to arts. Maybe it's coz bombay and delhi rule north now, and it's open for all. Money drives all sorts of collaborations.

by Hellsangel Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:41 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:classical - stuff that snooty people feel compelled to appreciate to maintain their snooty status

does this also include art movies by east european directors with hard to pronounce names?

no, that's just fine taste in movies.

i see so one kind of discernment is just fine taste, and another is snobbery. i see it all now.

at least the individuals putting out the product i like have names which don't result in a sprained tongue.

Being a tad too touchy, Il Professore? Not seeing the remark for what it is?

by Impedimenta Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:41 am

i am going to write up a petition to give "bollywood dance" a classical status. what? it has expressions, movements, costume[well, debatable but ya] use of hasthas, drama and even neck and head movements. Sometimes it even makes the audience want to wring someone's neck in frustration.

so, ya.

Rolling Eyes

central!

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