Uttar Pradesh:The pride of India

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my impression of agra is that it is an unmitigated shit hole. this is based on two visits - once in the 80s and once in 2002.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my impression of agra is that it is an unmitigated shit hole. this is based on two visits - once in the 80s and once in 2002.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my impression of agra is that it is an unmitigated shit hole. this is based on two visits - once in the 80s and once in 2002.

-- come on! To be totally objective, you can say that about any and all cities of India. Objectively speaking all of India is a shithole for the same reasons. The pics of Agra and the Taj mahal posted on this site are breathtakingly beautiful.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:london was also a shit hole when charles dickens wrote about it.

In the 18th century, cesspools and kennels – drains in the middle of street – were the primary means of dealing with wastes in Paris. However, the most usual method for disposing of garbage was “tout-a-la-rue” – “all in the street.” The practice of chucking household garbage out the window had existed since the period of the earliest attempts at sanitation in Paris, but persisted into the 19th century, and was certainly the mode at the period in which A Tale of Two Cities is set: In 1780, an ordinance “once again forbade people from throwing water, urine, feces or household garbage out the window” (Krupa, Paris: Urban Sanitation), and Dickens himself describes how “…the room or rooms within every door that opened on the general staircase [in the Saint-Antoine dwelling] left its own heap of refuse on its own landing, besides flinging other refuse from its own windows.” Thus, not only would there be “no drainage to carry off the wine” spilled in the Paris street Dickens describes, but drinking wine that had fallen on the paving stones could seriously compromise one’s health.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and here is dickens's paris in the era of the tale of two cities (http://dickens.stanford.edu/dickens/archive/tale/issue2_gloss.html):

In the 18th century, cesspools and kennels – drains in the middle of street – were the primary means of dealing with wastes in Paris. However, the most usual method for disposing of garbage was “tout-a-la-rue” – “all in the street.” The practice of chucking household garbage out the window had existed since the period of the earliest attempts at sanitation in Paris, but persisted into the 19th century, and was certainly the mode at the period in which A Tale of Two Cities is set: In 1780, an ordinance “once again forbade people from throwing water, urine, feces or household garbage out the window” (Krupa, Paris: Urban Sanitation), and Dickens himself describes how “…the room or rooms within every door that opened on the general staircase [in the Saint-Antoine dwelling] left its own heap of refuse on its own landing, besides flinging other refuse from its own windows.” Thus, not only would there be “no drainage to carry off the wine” spilled in the Paris street Dickens describes, but drinking wine that had fallen on the paving stones could seriously compromise one’s health.

so the comparison to london and paris of that era is probably quite apt. except london and paris cleaned up and agra remains a shithole.

nenu wrote:These ppl are invaders from the middle east to india. This king covets a married woman, gets her husband murdered in order to marry her. And then gives all the powers to her while he drowns in carnal pleasures. The lady misrules the kingdom putting her subjects to hardships. And then she dies at child birth. Then the good for nothing king spends all the tax payers' money to build a grave for his wife. What a useless thing for his subjects! I also heard that the hands of the artisans have been chopped off after the construction of the grave coz the king didn't want any of it to be replicated anywhere. The art and architecture of the grave is in persian style. There's nothing indian about it.
Why is it shown as a symbol representing india? I heard that the britishers didn't want to promote something hindu (eg, the ancient temples) and hence chose a non-religious grave to represent india. Also, there's some cynicism in promoting something built by the invaders and downplay the indigenous ppl.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:sanitation is and was unknown in india and i can't believe things were better back then. the only saving grace might be that there were fewer people.  using nightsoil collectors to tidy up palaces and mausoleums is no sign of a great city. agra is a shit hole now and was probably slightly less of a shit hole because there were fewer people back then.  

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:is nightsoil collection still prevalent in northindia?

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:is nightsoil collection still prevalent in northindia?

it is prevalent everywhere in india. what's your point?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:is nightsoil collection still prevalent in northindia?

it is prevalent everywhere in india. what's your point?

i don't think so. i think it is far more prevalent in the feudalistic north. i was just thinking about how the moghals may have cleaned up the immediate vicinity of their palaces, gardens, and mausoleums using nightsoil collectors. then the painful realization dawned on me that northindia still has nightsoil collectors.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:is nightsoil collection still prevalent in northindia?

it is prevalent everywhere in india. what's your point?

i don't think so. i think it is far more prevalent in the feudalistic north. i was just thinking about how the moghals may have cleaned up the immediate vicinity of their palaces, gardens, and mausoleums using nightsoil collectors. then the painful realization dawned on me that northindia still has nightsoil collectors.

nenu wrote:"The name Mughal is derived from the original homelands of the Timurids, the Central Asian steppes once conquered by Genghis Khan and hence known as Moghulistan, "Land of Mongols". Although early Mughals spoke the Chagatai language and maintained some Turko-Mongolpractices, they became essentially Persianized^[15] and transferred the Persian literary and high culture^[15] to India"


from wiki. 


PS: No more arguments with you. *yawn!* You continue with max. 

Hellsangel wrote:Not to distract you Il Professore, but you are now collecting puppy poop. Be careful of what you are treading into.

southindian wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:Not to distract you Il Professore, but you are now collecting puppy poop. Be careful of what you are treading into.

LOL,

What? Max the night soil collector? Did he ever think of becoming a poop picker at his age?

bw wrote:i am reminded of the sound and light show at the red fort that talks of all this - the rise and the eventual decay of the mughals. sitting on the lawn watching(listening to) this show was a very nice experience.

Rashmun wrote:

bw wrote:i am reminded of the sound and light show at the red fort that talks of all this - the rise and the eventual decay of the mughals. sitting on the lawn watching(listening to) this show was a very nice experience.

I remember going to this show at the red fort. Do you remember the laughing woman uttering the word 'watermelons' ?

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my impression of agra is that it is an unmitigated shit hole. this is based on two visits - once in the 80s and once in 2002.

many other people would agree with you. the question is: why were the european travelers and merchants of the 16th and 17 centuries to India comparing Agra and Delhi to Paris and London.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my impression of agra is that it is an unmitigated shit hole. this is based on two visits - once in the 80s and once in 2002.

many other people would agree with you. the question is: why were the european travelers and merchants of the 16th and 17 centuries to India comparing Agra and Delhi to Paris and London.

Until the 19th century, Paris and London were unmitigated shit holes too. Sewer systems and septic tanks started getting built only after the 1850s. Trash bins were installed on streets only in the 1890s, against stiff public opposition.

All those sanitized images of the great cities you see in historical movies are completely fictitious. But who wants to see excreta and garbage piled along the sides of the streets in the movies?

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
All those sanitized images of the great cities you see in historical movies are completely fictitious. But who wants to see excreta and garbage piled along the sides of the streets in the movies?

Rashmun wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:Ozymandias

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away".

Rashmun wrote:This is the Sanchi Stupa. It is a Budhist monument located in Madhya Pradesh. Notice the dome like structure. It is evident from the picture that the existence of the dome in India precedes the building of Mughal (and other Islamic) monuments in India which contain one or several domes.

Rashmun wrote:This is the Sanchi Stupa. It is a Budhist monument located in Madhya Pradesh. Notice the dome like structure. It is evident from the picture that the existence of the dome in India precedes the building of Mughal (and other Islamic) monuments in India which contain one or several domes.

Corbel domes and true domes have been found in the ancient Middle East in modest buildings and tombs. The construction of the first technically advanced true domes began in the Roman Architectural Revolution,[1] when they were frequently used by the Romans to shape large interior spaces of temples and public buildings, such as the Pantheon. This tradition continued unabated after the adoption of Christianity in the Byzantine (East Roman) religious and secular architecture, culminating in the revolutionary pendentive dome of the 6th-century church Hagia Sophia. Squinches, the technique of making a transition from a square shaped room to a circular dome, was most likely invented by the ancient Persians. The Sassanid Empire initiated the construction of the first large-scale domes in Persia, with such royal buildings as the Palace of Ardashir, Sarvestan and Ghal'eh Dokhtar. With the Muslim conquest of Greek-Roman Syria, the Byzantine architectural style became a major influence on Muslim societies. Indeed the use of domes as a feature of Islamic architecture has gotten its roots from Roman Greater-Syria (see Dome of the Rock).
An original tradition of using multiple domes was developed in the church architecture in Russia, which had adopted Orthodox Christianity from Byzantium. Russian domes are often gilded or brightly painted, and typically have a carcass and an outer shell made of wood or metal. The onion dome became another distinctive feature in the Russian architecture, often in combination with the tented roof.

Hellsangel wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome

Corbel domes and true domes have been found in the ancient Middle East in modest buildings and tombs. The construction of the first technically advanced true domes began in the Roman Architectural Revolution,[1] when they were frequently used by the Romans to shape large interior spaces of temples and public buildings, such as the Pantheon. This tradition continued unabated after the adoption of Christianity in the Byzantine (East Roman) religious and secular architecture, culminating in the revolutionary pendentive dome of the 6th-century church Hagia Sophia. Squinches, the technique of making a transition from a square shaped room to a circular dome, was most likely invented by the ancient Persians. The Sassanid Empire initiated the construction of the first large-scale domes in Persia, with such royal buildings as the Palace of Ardashir, Sarvestan and Ghal'eh Dokhtar. With the Muslim conquest of Greek-Roman Syria, the Byzantine architectural style became a major influence on Muslim societies. Indeed the use of domes as a feature of Islamic architecture has gotten its roots from Roman Greater-Syria (see Dome of the Rock).
An original tradition of using multiple domes was developed in the church architecture in Russia, which had adopted Orthodox Christianity from Byzantium. Russian domes are often gilded or brightly painted, and typically have a carcass and an outer shell made of wood or metal. The onion dome became another distinctive feature in the Russian architecture, often in combination with the tented roof.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:This is the Sanchi Stupa. It is a Budhist monument located in Madhya Pradesh. Notice the dome like structure. It is evident from the picture that the existence of the dome in India precedes the building of Mughal (and other Islamic) monuments in India which contain one or several domes.

that looks nothing like the dome on the taj. the onion shaped dome is found all across central asia and russia.