How UC Berkeley screws Indian applicants

by Rishi Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:26 pm

[color=#000000][font=georgia, times new roman, times, serif]The reason our budding engineer was a 2 on a 1-to-5 scale (1 being highest) has to do with Berkeley’s holistic, or comprehensive, review, an admissions policy adopted by most selective colleges and universities. In holistic review, institutions look beyond grades and scores to determine academic potential, drive and leadership abilities. Apparently, our Indian-American student needed more extracurricular activities and engineering awards to be ranked a 1.[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif]Now consider a second engineering applicant, a Mexican-American student with a moving, well-written essay but a 3.4 G.P.A. and SATs below 1800. His school offered no A.P. He competed in track when not at his after-school job, working the fields with his parents. His score? 2.5.[/font][/color]

[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/education/edlife/lifting-the-veil-on-the-holistic-process-at-the-university-of-california-berkeley.html?hp]http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/education/edlife/lifting-the-veil-on-the-holistic-process-at-the-university-of-california-berkeley.html?hp[/url]

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:33 pm

what's with the quotes?

by Rishi Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:37 pm

[quote="MaxEntropy_Man"]what's with the quotes?[/quote]Are you talking about the extra stuff that shows up when I copy and paste text here?

I have no idea how to get rid of them.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:55 pm

these guys should be hit with repeated, expensive, and tiring lawsuits until they clean up their act. they can't hide inside the, "we are private, we can do whatever we want" excuse like harvard, yale etc. they are funded by taxpayer money and are answerable to taxpayers. eminently sue-able.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:57 pm

none of these institutions include their own faculty in undergraduate admissions. i have always wondered why. faculty however are exclusively in charge of graduate admissions. funded PhD programs is where you see the practice of real merit at american universities. everything else is hogwash.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:58 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:none of these institutions include their own faculty in undergraduate admissions. i have always wondered why. faculty however are exclusively in charge of graduate admissions. funded PhD programs is where you see the practice of real merit at american universities. everything else is hogwash.

Undergraduate is the business of the "School", admins, Constituents, Alumni, and Donors. Graduate is faculty bisiness and so forget it.

regarding this extra-curricular business:

Desis have no business to complain. In India the rules are established - tests and scores and ranks, and the whole population prepares for that since birth.

In US, the rules are scores and tests 50% and the rest is 50%. Desis and Chinkus know that and thus should be prepared to play by those rules and prepare them by those rules. If the parents continue to prepare their kids by Chinku/Desi rules (that they are familiar with) and if the kids dont get selected, they have only themselves to blame.

Here are the things that I have been yapping for years for Desi parents:

GPA, Scores, Yada yada and more yada are only 50% (and they will ace that anyway). Kumon and other crap are needed for most desi kids. if you want to compete with Whities for the other 50% of the scores, then do what the whities do and the more the kids are exposed to chnkus, whites, and blacks, the more they will be famiar with what they do and how they do them. The east and west coasters overwhelmingly let their kids be with desi groups (one or 2 whities here and there dont count).

Oh....u want to get into top east and west coast schools, play the american game. MOVE TO THE CENTER. I am NOT kidding. both coastal schools LOVE - simply LOVE - good students from midwest. All schools want geographic variety and they sincerely believe the kids from midwest are a different breed with work ethic and sincerity. They would love desi kids from mid west over desi kids from local east/west coast. Oh..if you want your kids to go to top professional schools...you pray for a miracle if you live on the coast.

Just this year a girl gets into U Mich (which is extremely tough for out of staters to get in) and she would not have succeeded if she had been from Michigan or the coast.

East Coast Ivy schools dont like west coasters and vice versa....(This is almost like Iyer/Iyengar hatred).

So as always ignore my advise to your own regret.

by Petrichor Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:59 pm

Rishi, that was a very interesting read. Beyond the usual criteria, I detect two main elements of a successful brown applicant:

1. Authenticity of the essay and an original voice that shows maturity, wisdom and love for learning
2. Willingness to put yourself to discomfort and succeeding and conquering that experience

Good to know Berkeley likes 20% of out-of-staters.

PS. You reminded me to dust off and read the essay and see what they saw, for this prompt Smile

"Some questions cannot be answered. They become familiar weights in the hand, Round stones pulled from the pocket, unyielding and cool."

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:21 pm

Petrichor wrote:Rishi, that was a very interesting read. Beyond the usual criteria, I detect two main elements of a successful brown applicant:

1. Authenticity of the essay and an original voice that shows maturity, wisdom and love for learning
2. Willingness to put yourself to discomfort and succeeding and conquering that experience

This is VERY important. Most desi kids are assumed to have been helped by parents, which is mostly true. Guess what..... The admission committee will smell it a 100 sheets away, and that ALONE is enough to kill the applicant. No matter how many years parents might have spent in US, their essays can never substitute for the kids OWN essays (which parents never find it to their liking).

And dont...dont ever under estimate the white kids. Those kids are just as smart and easily beat the desi kids in determination - Spelling Bee notwithstanding. The top 10% of kids from ANY COUNTRY/CULTURE are equally bright. DEsi kids are no special..actually, by desi parents measure, the Chinkus and the Kims will eat the desi kids alive.

by truthbetold Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:33 pm

Fog of selection process provides cover for the old order to control the process. Lot of what I read in the above article is bs. If these so called admissions experts can. Pick winners with their not so well documented process, there is a huge money making opportunity waiting for them in selecting middle management in profit making corporations.
Most of these ineffective systems thrive in colleges only to protect certain unannounced quotas.

by truthbetold Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:41 pm

Samiyar,
if you cannot explain it, if you cannot measure it, then you cannot improve it. Colleges are for learning. They have develop better and better appreciation of student qualities each year. The admission policy should become more and more clear and well defined each year and each successive decade.
What we are seeing is an irrational under the wraps selection process.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:42 pm

this thing about indian kids not being as well rounded or not having an original voice is total hogwash. there are plenty of indian kids with passionate and unique interests who are defeated by a system expressly designed to keep them out. i agree with TBT's characterization -- the fog of the admission process is intended to practice some kind of backdoor socialism and thwart meritocracy. it all evens out in grad school though where the boys are culled from the lot of men.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:10 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this thing about indian kids not being as well rounded or not having an original voice is total hogwash. there are plenty of indian kids with passionate and unique interests who are defeated by a system expressly designed to keep them out. i agree with TBT's characterization -- the fog of the admission process is intended to practice some kind of backdoor socialism and thwart meritocracy. it all evens out in grad school though where the boys are culled from the lot of men.

In my ripe old age and years of wisdom, i have concluded this. Every country has segmented population and a ruling population. The system is stacked against others to protect status quo. it is the job of the rest to figure out a way to break those barriers. Same is true in India and expect the same with the US. Remember, the subtle movement against math bcz 40 to 70% of WHITES fail math and science? Expect tinkering with the admission process in the next 2 decades.

There is no such thing as 100% meritocracy ANYWHERE on this earth in any field.

having said that...2 applicants being equal, then people look at the constraints, their beginnings, env., etc. An example... Teachers recos (all three - who all unfortunately write the way they see their wards) should match the students performance, tests, trends, essay, and so on... The proper LINKAGE and connectivity are very important. There was an applicant - a national merit scholar and excellent in math and science, letters, etc...etc... wrote an essay about how passionate she was about Biology, blah blah...bingo...turned down practically by every IVY league and Elite schools.

Oh...another thing... look at the all desi girls their extra curricular activity are standard Indian dance and music; a summer or 2 volunteering in India, and if rich enough a summer at some presitigious univ high school camp. Boys - spelling bee, science Olympiad, debate, hospital voluntary this and that...so so very routine. If you see one you have seen practically all... If "I" think like this imagine what the whitie admission people would think... Oh...Indian kids writing about their parents hardships and their dedication to kids and how the applicant is ever grateful to pappy, mommy, grandpa, grandma is so unbelievable for Whities. The Public thinks the Indians are a privileged lot and the ones in this country are well educated and well do to in US and in India.

desi parents have to think OUTside the box.

by confuzzled dude Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:20 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
desi parents have to think OUTside the box.
such as living in Kansas hoping kids would be admitted to U Mich. hah! I almost forgot, drive a beat-up civic with 150k+ miles on hoping that teaches kids about hardships

by truthbetold Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:30 pm

Samiyar,
while we may have some differences, you posts above contains some nuggets of truth.
There is an unwritten quota for minorities that must be met. Courts forced this process to become murky and it is now an underground effort.
% of majority community is another protected area. This leads anti math, anti sat type of efforts. Colleges are aware that if they are branded as Asian dominated then legislatures may become unresponsive and cut more budget allocations and billionaire benefactors may not give them those large donations.
hence the fog of selection process.
There are enough sreeram ramachandrans who are smart, athletic and care about humanity. Quite a few of them are losing their opportunity to the times we live in.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:47 pm

truthbetold wrote:Samiyar,
while we may have some differences, you posts above contains some nuggets of truth.
There is an unwritten quota for minorities that must be met. Courts forced this process to become murky and it is now an underground effort.
% of majority community is another protected area. This leads anti math, anti sat type of efforts. Colleges are aware that if they are branded as Asian dominated then legislatures may become unresponsive and cut more budget allocations and billionaire benefactors may not give them those large donations.
hence the fog of selection process.
There are enough sreeram ramachandrans who are smart, athletic and care about humanity. Quite a few of them are losing their opportunity to the times we live in.

Irony is that the PiSS Group that loses no time in pointing out the number of Muslims in colleges, services in India compared to their population should understand that given the Indian population of some 0.05% their ratio in top colleges are way beyond their proportion. So why shouldn't the whites and Americans discriminate? Not that i am for that... but I also firmly believe discrimination is man's second nature and no one and no law is going to prevent this. Desis should understand that and use their smartness to outsmart the system and use it.

CD: dont know if you have grown kids. But, have seen kids with superlative scores from East/West coast being turned down by Elite schools, while kids just above average and questionable smarts have entered the same schools. BTW, Iowa and Kansas have some super excellent schools and you coasters will kill to get your kids in them. Unfortunately, it is the higher education that stinks - except in Iowa.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:32 pm

i don't know who the piss group is, but i have always been against affirmative action in any form, be it india or here. affirmative action is a screwed up policy and is only a lazy substitute for the harder task of making k-12 education of equal and high quality for everyone.

by confuzzled dude Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:35 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

CD: dont know if you have grown kids. But, have seen kids with superlative scores from East/West coast being turned down by Elite schools, while kids just above average and questionable smarts have entered the same schools. BTW, Iowa and Kansas have some super excellent schools and you coasters will kill to get your kids in them. Unfortunately, it is the higher education that stinks - except in Iowa.

Could it be because of the reputation Indians or Asians in general have. Anyway, I'm not hung up on my kids getting into top schools, if they get in that's fine, if not no big deal. I've seen way too many cases to realize getting education from a top school is not necessarily a recipe to become successful in life.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:19 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

CD: dont know if you have grown kids. But, have seen kids with superlative scores from East/West coast being turned down by Elite schools, while kids just above average and questionable smarts have entered the same schools. BTW, Iowa and Kansas have some super excellent schools and you coasters will kill to get your kids in them. Unfortunately, it is the higher education that stinks - except in Iowa.
Could it be because of the reputation Indians or Asians in general have. Anyway, I'm not hung up on my kids getting into top schools, if they get in that's fine, if not no big deal. I've seen way too many cases to realize getting education from a top school is not necessarily a recipe to become successful in life.

It all depends on how you define it.

Again, you are thinking ONLY in terms of Asians and Indians...There lies your problem. There lies most Desi problems - who think the whites are all dumb and they need to compete only against other Desis and Chinkus - hence more emphasis on the same old criteria.

Anyway...good luck and hold onto all your views until the real time comes.

by confuzzled dude Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:25 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
It all depends on how you define it.

Everyone has a different definition of success. Getting into IIT or Berkeley certainly isn't the definition of success in my book.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Again, you are thinking ONLY in terms of Asians and Indians...There lies your problem. There lies most Desi problems - who think the whites are all dumb and they need to compete only against other Desis and Chinkus - hence more emphasis on the same old criteria.

Anyway...good luck and hold onto all your views until the real time comes.

huh! you're accusing me of stereotyping that I have no recollection of saying while you're doing exactly the same i.e. stereotyping desi psyche.

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