Re: India deserves better than Modi

by truthbetold Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:32 pm

I said this before. Modi is now riding the wave. Rahul is in dumps. he is down so low, he cannot do any worse. So going forward, it is for modi to self destruct. They all do. I think AMit shah "revenge" bit and "modi's "pink revolution" are examples of over confidence. They are not able to keep their darker side covered up anymore. That is why opinion polls say, if voting were held today.

Talk like this will bring modi and bjp down. How much is anybody's guess. The final tally in may will change to account for many more of these expected mistakes.

by confuzzled dude Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:00 pm

truthbetold wrote:I said this before. Modi is now riding the wave. Rahul is in dumps. he is down so low, he cannot do any worse. So going forward, it is for modi to self destruct. They all do. I think AMit shah "revenge" bit and "modi's "pink revolution" are examples of over confidence. They are not able to keep their darker side covered up anymore. That is why opinion polls say, if voting were held today.

Talk like this will bring modi and bjp down. How much is anybody's guess. The final tally in may will change to account for many more of these expected mistakes.

Well said and very true. Per TOI, these days, Modi is speaking in first person, says vote for me (instead of saying vote for BJP).

by confuzzled dude Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:15 pm

"In response to the Election Commission’s notice seeking disclosure of his relationship with the Ambani family, Gujarat’s Energy and Petroleum Minister Saurabh Patel has sent a reply to the poll panel.

“In my letter, I have clearly informed the EC that I am married to the daughter of Dhirubhai Ambani’s elder brother. That was 25 years ago and that’s what I have said,” Mr. Patel told The Hindu on Thursday."

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/my-link-with-ambanis-is-by-marriage-gujarat-minister/article5867674.ece

"Saurabh Patel, the minister of state for industries, energy and petrochemicals, seem to be having the maximum exposure to the markets among his cabinet colleagues.

Patel owns Rs 5.6 crore worth of shares of listed companies in his name, some of which are based out of Gujarat. These listed firms include Coal India (35,000 shares), Gujarat Pipavav Port Ltd (50,000 shares), Sintex Industries (25,000), Reliance Industries (7,500), Adani Enterprises (5,000), Reliance Communication (2,600) and others.

His wife Ilaben's equity portfolio is much larger at almost Rs 14 crore. A "housewife and an investor", she owns shares of Reliance industries (1.49 lakh shares), Reliance Communication (72,000), Reliance Power (19,500), Tata Motors (3,000), Reliance Capital (6,100), Gujarat Pipavav Port Ltd (14,750), Petronet LNG (15,000), Adani Power (8,000) and Coal India Ltd (5,000)."

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/narendra-modi-ministers-mind-their-business/1040179/1

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:00 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:"In response to the Election Commission’s notice seeking disclosure of his relationship with the Ambani family, Gujarat’s Energy and Petroleum Minister Saurabh Patel has sent a reply to the poll panel.

“In my letter, I have clearly informed the EC that I am married to the daughter of Dhirubhai Ambani’s elder brother. That was 25 years ago and that’s what I have said,” Mr. Patel told The Hindu on Thursday."

His wife Ilaben's equity portfolio is much larger at almost Rs 14 crore. A "housewife and an investor", she owns shares of Reliance industries (1.49 lakh shares), Reliance Communication (72,000), Reliance Power (19,500), Tata Motors (3,000), Reliance Capital (6,100), Gujarat Pipavav Port Ltd (14,750), Petronet LNG (15,000), Adani Power (8,000) and Coal India Ltd (5,000)."

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/narendra-modi-ministers-mind-their-business/1040179/1

So... the guy has to marry someone, and happen to marry Mukesh's cousin sister 25 yrs ago, before mukesh, Anil, or Modi were in the picture. Besides, i heard somewhere that Rahul Gandhi is the son of an Italian woman - who held italian passport at that time n both hold italian passports. besides, he is brother-in-laaw to one Vadras - big time (illegal) land owner.

is that true ?

by confuzzled dude Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:08 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:"In response to the Election Commission’s notice seeking disclosure of his relationship with the Ambani family, Gujarat’s Energy and Petroleum Minister Saurabh Patel has sent a reply to the poll panel.

“In my letter, I have clearly informed the EC that I am married to the daughter of Dhirubhai Ambani’s elder brother. That was 25 years ago and that’s what I have said,” Mr. Patel told The Hindu on Thursday."

His wife Ilaben's equity portfolio is much larger at almost Rs 14 crore. A "housewife and an investor", she owns shares of Reliance industries (1.49 lakh shares), Reliance Communication (72,000), Reliance Power (19,500), Tata Motors (3,000), Reliance Capital (6,100), Gujarat Pipavav Port Ltd (14,750), Petronet LNG (15,000), Adani Power (8,000) and Coal India Ltd (5,000)."

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/narendra-modi-ministers-mind-their-business/1040179/1

So... the guy has to marry someone, and happen to marry Mukesh's cousin sister 25 yrs ago, before mukesh, Anil, or Modi were in the picture. Besides, i heard somewhere that Rahul Gandhi is the son of an Italian woman - who held italian passport at that time n both hold italian passports. besides, he is brother-in-laaw to one Vadras - big time (illegal) land owner.

is that true ?

What about a minor issue called conflict of interest? My point is not even that; Just wanted point out to Modi's fans boys that he no kids so won't indulge in corruption theory may not fly. Nobody blames MMS as corrupt either (despite all the scams) what good did it do?

by SomeProfile Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:33 pm

Don't worry confused dude. Regardless of what some idiot thinks about what India deserves, hundreds of millions of Indians know what they want: ab ki baar Modi sarkar! lol!

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:38 pm

truthbetold wrote:I said this before. Modi is now riding the wave. Rahul is in dumps. he is down so low, he cannot do any worse. So going forward, it is for modi to self destruct. They all do. I think AMit shah "revenge" bit and "modi's "pink revolution" are examples of over confidence. They are not able to keep their darker side covered up anymore. That is why opinion polls say, if voting were held today.

Talk like this will bring modi and bjp down. How much is anybody's guess. The final tally in may will change to account for many more of these expected mistakes.

Only way India will get a better person than Modi is if Modi married and had a son.... Razz

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:39 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
truthbetold wrote:I said this before. Modi is now riding the wave. Rahul is in dumps. he is down so low, he cannot do any worse. So going forward, it is for modi to self destruct. They all do. I think AMit shah "revenge" bit and "modi's "pink revolution" are examples of over confidence. They are not able to keep their darker side covered up anymore. That is why opinion polls say, if voting were held today.

Talk like this will bring modi and bjp down. How much is anybody's guess. The final tally in may will change to account for many more of these expected mistakes.

Only way India will get a better person than Modi is if Modi married and had a son....

True. Are you interested, Aunty? You will make a good wife to an alpha male.

SomeProfile comes across as more desperate for that role, but probably lacks the right accessories. Saheb doesn't appear to be a swinger but who knows what's hidden in that closet...

by gone Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:38 pm

I don't claim to understand everything in these posts because I know almost nothing about Indian government. Seriously, I couldn't tell you who the current president is there, although I know who the PM is.

My parents are staunch supporters of Modi and I hope he wins. He has no spouse, no kids, no reason to be corrupt and show favoritism to cronies. His economic policies are pragmatic. Let's not give the poor a handout. Let's create jobs for the poor by cutting taxes and increasing corporate investment. Don't believe pie-in-the-sky socialists who talk about helping the poor. Government is all about helping government and creating job security for themselves. Small government is good.

by smArtha Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:46 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Yes, India deserves better. Sadly, the alternatives are much worse. That unfortunately is the reality. So suck it up and hope that some better options show up by 2019..

You mean better Modi or better Rahul/Priyanka or better AK?! IMO, if Modi comes to power now, then these will be the options in 2019 too as long as all these guys are still alive.

by smArtha Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:52 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:expect it to be easily dismissed as western media acting against indian interests. the truth is nobody besides bjp and modi supporters are convinced that the supreme court verdict confers any kind of respectability on him. even amongst them there are cynical people like saamiyaar who full well know that he is culpable, even admit to it, but in fact support him because they believe him to be culpable, not in spite of it.

So you believe that media (western one in particular) acts in the larger public interest and never trades it with that of its promoters or sponsors or editors or columnists?

by smArtha Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:03 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:I think you're taking a very narrow view (economy) and compromising fully knowing the baggage he comes with. He actively participated or supported 3 of the high profile communal events that took place. Even if you want give him credit for his efforts on economy front, 3 of the 4 states in the south, in spite of the issues, did as well as or better than Gujarat. Why is everybody (especially media) singing hosannas of Modi because he is a NORT INDIAN and speaks HINDI fluently. I don't think that kind of vetting process or qualification bodes well for India's progress in this and age. South has always shown progress than other parts of India, if anything a leader from South may have better vision than Modi.

Are those south leaders now contesting for the PM spot? If not, what is your point? Electorate can only choose based on the options they are offered. If they have the choice to choose their candidates and leaders (like the US Primaries), India would have produced more responsible leaders.

Even you, by some weird perversion of logic, think that Jagan is a natural heir and leader to succeed YSR and govern as well or better than him. Modi/CBN at least have a record for people to base their support or criticism on. What does Rahul and Jagan have other than claiming that of their parents or ancestors?

by smArtha Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:25 pm

Idéfix wrote:I agree with most of the points in the article. I hope that NDA does not win this election. If it does, I hope it wins narrowly enough that alliance partners force someone other Modi as PM.

Let's say your wish is granted, what is the alternative you wish assumes power? UPA-3 with depleted strength and support from more splinter groups or an umbrella of these splinter groups supported from outside by Congress? And why do you think any of that is better for India than the NDA with or without Modi?

by smArtha Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:30 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
i understood only parts of it, but instead of answering the question by saying that everyone is equal and that's the law of the nation, he resorts to giving some long-winded emission of flatulence about hindu creed and philosophy. i wouldn't want a religious philosopher as the leader, but one who respects and upholds the law of the land.

Where do you see more chance for tolerance and equality? When it is pushed top down via a law and enforcement or if it is part of the culture/ethos and built into most of the people with occasional violations by fringe elements or by larger sections of people in exceptional situations?

by smArtha Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:36 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rajiv gandhi is not a candidate in this election, modi is.

I'm not sure how much you are aware of the Indian system of democracy. But in India, you don't have separate slots/polls to choose an ideology (party) and a candidate in the constituency and a leader for the nation. They are all one and same. So if the electorate thinks that Congress is equally or more culpable of communal/caste based isolation/exploitation/violation than BJP is then he has to factor that into the whole picture before choosing or rejecting a leader. So it is not unusual to question Congress party's credentials on secularism and compare it with that of BJP to make a choice.

by smArtha Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:00 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Every election since 1980 has been fought, not on an economic plank, but on an assumed fear of a communal BJP and the need to prevent it from coming to power. India is the only country where the opposition is voted out of power in every election. To allay the fear of the "fear mongers" one has to simply cite the defeat of the reasonably successful BJP government in 2004 - again fought on the 2002 riots. So, should Modi and BJP ends up with blood on their hands in 2019, they can always be thrown out - there has been precedence in 1977 and 2004. Instead to simply disenfranchise an opposition - perennially - on an assumed and imaginary projection of the past is neither fair nor democratic.

Good point and the irony is that the Congress and their supporters blame the BJP for cultivating a fear of Muslims among some sections of Hindus while they do the same thing i.e. create a fear of BJP among the rest of the population, media and political spectrum. Appeasement of a community, way more than the democratic norms of protection of minorities and offering doles to retain such community vote banks pre-dates the BJP's origin or Sang's significant influence in political landscape of the country.

by smArtha Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:07 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Corruption is like a disease of the skin, and further as per the Indian Supreme Court the Modi govt. is also guilty of corruption. But instigating civil strife between different sections of a society is like a disease of the heart--much more dangerous for the health of a nation.

Since you started let me continue in the same path. If corruption is like disease of the skin then communal strife is like sweat that manifests in exhaustion or tiring circumstances and dries up in pleasant pr favorable conditions. And Modi can create such favorable and pleasant conditions Very Happy

by smArtha Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:14 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:Incompetent - not proven; If you think BJP will be less corrupt, we will have to wait and see. So both your points could very well apply to BJP.

And isn't this why the electorate may want to consider BJP to see if they'll offer that 'less corrupt' alternative? With the available evidence thus far NDA regime was less corrupt (in orders of magnitude) than the UPA (especially the version 2) regime. In any case, you don't believe in levels of corruption. For you a traffic constable ripping Rs 50 (with your active participation) is as corrupt as Jagan or Raja who impacted hundreds of thousands of crores selling resources without your 'active' involvement

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:16 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:

Assumed? must be a typo.

Have you proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Modi was behind the 750 muslims killed or it was ONLY the BJP that was behind the riots?

Since you or none have proved it yet, it is still only an assumption.

you have admitted to believing that modi is culpable in the past.

Culpable of complicity and leading the riots or culpability of ineffeciency and ineffectiveness?

Why does the history start at 2002? Yes, modi is the one in the fray and not rajiv gandhi. But, isn't congress involved in 1984 riots? aren't members of the murderer Rajiv Gandhis family running that party even today and standing in elections?

Let us start from 1970 and see which party and FAMILY have done most damage to democratic traditions, democratic institutions through corruptions and economy through looting and corruption.

Dont be selective and look at the entire spectrum.

rajiv gandhi is not a candidate in this election, modi is.

So, is Amethi in PakiSatan?

by confuzzled dude Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:04 pm

smArtha wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:I think you're taking a very narrow view (economy) and compromising fully knowing the baggage he comes with. He actively participated or supported 3 of the high profile communal events that took place. Even if you want give him credit for his efforts on economy front, 3 of the 4 states in the south, in spite of the issues, did as well as or better than Gujarat. Why is everybody (especially media) singing hosannas of Modi because he is a NORT INDIAN and speaks HINDI fluently. I don't think that kind of vetting process or qualification bodes well for India's progress in this and age. South has always shown progress than other parts of India, if anything a leader from South may have better vision than Modi.

Are those south leaders now contesting for the PM spot? If not, what is your point? Electorate can only choose based on the options they are offered. If they have the choice to choose their candidates and leaders (like the US Primaries), India would have produced more responsible leaders.

There are better candidates in BJP than Modi e.g. Raman Singh, Shivraj Singh, have no baggage; don't have Reliance backing either. Comparison to South is to prove that Modi's economic-success is nothing extraordinary to gloat about. Several other states have achieved similar levels of success. In fact Modi underachieved, if we were to go by the theories floated on SuCH that "corruption-free-governance-promotes-growth" & "Modi-is-Mr.Clean". His achievements should have been head & shoulders above corrupt regimes Razz

smArtha wrote:
Even you, by some weird perversion of logic, think that Jagan is a natural heir and leader to succeed YSR and govern as well or better than him. Modi/CBN at least have a record for people to base their support or criticism on. What does Rahul and Jagan have other than claiming that of their parents or ancestors?

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said such a thing.

by Kris Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:25 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
smArtha wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:I think you're taking a very narrow view (economy) and compromising fully knowing the baggage he comes with. He actively participated or supported 3 of the high profile communal events that took place. Even if you want give him credit for his efforts on economy front, 3 of the 4 states in the south, in spite of the issues, did as well as or better than Gujarat. Why is everybody (especially media) singing hosannas of Modi because he is a NORT INDIAN and speaks HINDI fluently. I don't think that kind of vetting process or qualification bodes well for India's progress in this and age. South has always shown progress than other parts of India, if anything a leader from South may have better vision than Modi.

Are those south leaders now contesting for the PM spot? If not, what is your point? Electorate can only choose based on the options they are offered. If they have the choice to choose their candidates and leaders (like the US Primaries), India would have produced more responsible leaders.
There are better candidates in BJP than Modi e.g. Raman Singh, Shivraj Singh, have no baggage; don't have Reliance backing either. Comparison to South is to prove that Modi's economic-success is nothing extraordinary to gloat about. Several other states have achieved similar levels of success. In fact Modi underachieved, if we were to go by the theories floated on SuCH that "corruption-free-governance-promotes-growth" & "Modi-is-Mr.Clean". His achievements should have been head & shoulders above corrupt regimes

>>>I think you are underestimating the value of this and a business-friendly posture in a global context. As far as the baggage goes (much of which remains to be proven), commerce is a-moral. This really is a case of ' if you build it, they will come'. I am not familiar with the two others you have mentioned, but the modi fever won't transfer to them. You cannot deny this guy's charisma.

by confuzzled dude Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:26 pm

He has a record of hostility toward journalists and their questions and rarely grants interviews. Worse, he has cultivated an autocratic style in government and, as head of the BJP, systematically purging critics and potential rivals.

If he decides to continue that model it will only impact BJP's future most likely will weaken the party, blessing in disguise though, we can rid of communal party for good. Smile

At worst, a Modi government could erode India’s robust democracy and exacerbate religious tensions that in recent years have abated. But India’s political culture is resilient and resistent to such extremism.

Thank goodness most Indians are civilized unlike .....

Though critics had similar worries when the BJP’s first government took office in 1998, they were mostly not borne out. The Obama administration, which in February broke its freeze-out of Mr. Modi, is right to bet that he will follow through on his promise to build the economy rather than picking sectarian fights.

Kutte ki Dum Kabhi Seedhi Nahi Hoti (A dog's tail can never be straightened)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/indias-narendra-modi-should-build-on-his-successes/2014/04/07/b95899e0-be7a-11e3-b195-dd0c1174052c_story.html

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:34 pm

Kris wrote:You cannot deny this guy's charisma.

some of us find him repulsive.

by Kris Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:41 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kris wrote:You cannot deny this guy's charisma.

some of us find him repulsive.

>>>> The relevance of which is what to those who want to vote for him?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:45 pm

Kris wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kris wrote:You cannot deny this guy's charisma.

some of us find him repulsive.

>>>> The relevance of which is what to those who want to vote for him?

you said his charisma cannot be denied. i was responding to that.

by confuzzled dude Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:49 pm

Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
smArtha wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:I think you're taking a very narrow view (economy) and compromising fully knowing the baggage he comes with. He actively participated or supported 3 of the high profile communal events that took place. Even if you want give him credit for his efforts on economy front, 3 of the 4 states in the south, in spite of the issues, did as well as or better than Gujarat. Why is everybody (especially media) singing hosannas of Modi because he is a NORT INDIAN and speaks HINDI fluently. I don't think that kind of vetting process or qualification bodes well for India's progress in this and age. South has always shown progress than other parts of India, if anything a leader from South may have better vision than Modi.

Are those south leaders now contesting for the PM spot? If not, what is your point? Electorate can only choose based on the options they are offered. If they have the choice to choose their candidates and leaders (like the US Primaries), India would have produced more responsible leaders.
There are better candidates in BJP than Modi e.g. Raman Singh, Shivraj Singh, have no baggage; don't have Reliance backing either. Comparison to South is to prove that Modi's economic-success is nothing extraordinary to gloat about. Several other states have achieved similar levels of success. In fact Modi underachieved, if we were to go by the theories floated on SuCH that "corruption-free-governance-promotes-growth" & "Modi-is-Mr.Clean". His achievements should have been head & shoulders above corrupt regimes

>>>I think you are underestimating the value of this and a business-friendly posture in a global context. As far as the baggage goes (much of which remains to be proven), commerce is a-moral. This really is a case of ' if you build it, they will come'. I am not familiar with the two others you have mentioned, but the modi fever won't transfer to them. You cannot deny this guy's charisma.

I might be but India is definitely overestimating Modi's capabilities I can only hope they won't be disappointed. I can't help but be cynical after having seen what happened to Mr. Clean of mid '80s. Majority of Modi's supporters are in their 20s have no idea about past let's hope that history won't repeat.

by Kris Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:51 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kris wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kris wrote:You cannot deny this guy's charisma.

some of us find him repulsive.

>>>> The relevance of which is what to those who want to vote for him?

you said his charisma cannot be denied. i was responding to that.

>>>My point is many of those who want to vote from him presumably do. I am still open to hearing definitive proof of his guilt, which I have not seen thus far. Despite that, I see him as being dynamic and I can see how he would create confidence in investors.

by Kris Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:56 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
smArtha wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:I think you're taking a very narrow view (economy) and compromising fully knowing the baggage he comes with. He actively participated or supported 3 of the high profile communal events that took place. Even if you want give him credit for his efforts on economy front, 3 of the 4 states in the south, in spite of the issues, did as well as or better than Gujarat. Why is everybody (especially media) singing hosannas of Modi because he is a NORT INDIAN and speaks HINDI fluently. I don't think that kind of vetting process or qualification bodes well for India's progress in this and age. South has always shown progress than other parts of India, if anything a leader from South may have better vision than Modi.

Are those south leaders now contesting for the PM spot? If not, what is your point? Electorate can only choose based on the options they are offered. If they have the choice to choose their candidates and leaders (like the US Primaries), India would have produced more responsible leaders.
There are better candidates in BJP than Modi e.g. Raman Singh, Shivraj Singh, have no baggage; don't have Reliance backing either. Comparison to South is to prove that Modi's economic-success is nothing extraordinary to gloat about. Several other states have achieved similar levels of success. In fact Modi underachieved, if we were to go by the theories floated on SuCH that "corruption-free-governance-promotes-growth" & "Modi-is-Mr.Clean". His achievements should have been head & shoulders above corrupt regimes

>>>I think you are underestimating the value of this and a business-friendly posture in a global context. As far as the baggage goes (much of which remains to be proven), commerce is a-moral. This really is a case of ' if you build it, they will come'. I am not familiar with the two others you have mentioned, but the modi fever won't transfer to them. You cannot deny this guy's charisma.
I might be but India is definitely overestimating Modi's capabilities I can only hope they won't be disappointed. I can't help but be cynical after having seen what happened to Mr. Clean of mid '80s. Majority of Modi's supporters are in their 20s have no idea about past let's hope that history won't repeat.

>>CD,

In politics anything is possible, but you go on the basis of the snapshot you have at a particular moment. The world has changed a lot since the 80s, especially in what India brings to the table on the global front. Congress in fact may have missed the boat on this paradigm shift , beating the drum on the same old issues. The younger generation is more aware, more ambitious and more confident. A big part of this game is expectations.

by confuzzled dude Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:43 pm

Kris wrote:
>>CD,

In politics anything is possible, but you go on the basis of the snapshot you have at a particular moment. The world has changed a lot since the 80s, especially in what India brings to the table on the global front. Congress in fact may have missed the boat on this paradigm shift , beating the drum on the same old issues. The younger generation is more aware, more ambitious and more confident. A big part of this game is expectations.

I wouldn't read too much into this election cycle, this is more anti-incumbency than anything else; Modi happens to be in the right place at the right time.

by Kris Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:45 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:
>>CD,

In politics anything is possible, but you go on the basis of the snapshot you have at a particular moment. The world has changed a lot since the 80s, especially in what India brings to the table on the global front. Congress in fact may have missed the boat on this paradigm shift , beating the drum on the same old issues. The younger generation is more aware, more ambitious and more confident. A big part of this game is expectations.
I wouldn't read too much into this election cycle, this is more anti-incumbency than anything else; Modi happens to be in the right place at the right time.

>>Ordinarily, I am cynical about elections even in this country. However, in this case, being anti-congress is just a subset of the overall plank. Congress has dug its own grave in many ways, of course. I see there is an articulation of what the country can be in this platform. This election wouldn't grabbed my interest otherwise.

by Merlot Daruwala Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:00 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:
>>CD,

In politics anything is possible, but you go on the basis of the snapshot you have at a particular moment. The world has changed a lot since the 80s, especially in what India brings to the table on the global front. Congress in fact may have missed the boat on this paradigm shift , beating the drum on the same old issues. The younger generation is more aware, more ambitious and more confident. A big part of this game is expectations.
I wouldn't read too much into this election cycle, this is more anti-incumbency than anything else; Modi happens to be in the right place at the right time.

No, this doesn't do justice to either Modi's talents or to the direness of the Congress' problems. Much as you might loathe Modi, you can't deny he is a powerful public speaker. And his political skills in sidelining every single leader within the BJP and rising to the very top in such a short time is absolutely masterful. So it's not by some accident that he's where he is.

But even with all his talents, Modi could never have dreamed of a prime-ministership on his own steam simply because his party just doesn't have enough feet on the ground in many parts of the country.

A big help for Modi has come from the Congress. Anti-incumbency is, of course, a given. But that was there in 2004 too. It need not have been a crippling factor if only the Congress had any leaders capable of galvanizing the masses. Instead, the family has systematically destroyed the organization so the only visible faces left are that of Sonia or Rahul, both of who are insipid and incapable of carrying even a state leave alone a country.

It is that absence of a viable alternative that is propelling Modi to power and will keep him there for the foreseeable future.

by confuzzled dude Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:56 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
No, this doesn't do justice to either Modi's talents or to the direness of the Congress' problems. Much as you might loathe Modi, you can't deny he is a powerful public speaker. And his political skills in sidelining every single leader within the BJP and rising to the very top in such a short time is absolutely masterful. So it's not by some accident that he's where he is.

But even with all his talents, Modi could never have dreamed of a prime-ministership on his own steam simply because his party just doesn't have enough feet on the ground in many parts of the country.

A big help for Modi has come from the Congress. Anti-incumbency is, of course, a given. But that was there in 2004 too. It need not have been a crippling factor if only the Congress had any leaders capable of galvanizing the masses. Instead, the family has systematically destroyed the organization so the only visible faces left are that of Sonia or Rahul, both of who are insipid and incapable of carrying even a state leave alone a country.

Well, these are the cycles every political party goes through, Democratic party went through this phase before Obama & GOP is going through that phase now.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
It is that absence of a viable alternative that is propelling Modi to power and will keep him there for the foreseeable future.

That's scary, hope he won't turn into Dubya of India.

by Guest Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:58 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:
>>CD,

In politics anything is possible, but you go on the basis of the snapshot you have at a particular moment. The world has changed a lot since the 80s, especially in what India brings to the table on the global front. Congress in fact may have missed the boat on this paradigm shift , beating the drum on the same old issues. The younger generation is more aware, more ambitious and more confident. A big part of this game is expectations.
I wouldn't read too much into this election cycle, this is more anti-incumbency than anything else; Modi happens to be in the right place at the right time.

No, this doesn't do justice to either Modi's talents or to the direness of the Congress' problems. Much as you might loathe Modi, you can't deny he is a powerful public speaker. And his political skills in sidelining every single leader within the BJP and rising to the very top in such a short time is absolutely masterful. So it's not by some accident that he's where he is.

But even with all his talents, Modi could never have dreamed of a prime-ministership on his own steam simply because his party just doesn't have enough feet on the ground in many parts of the country.

A big help for Modi has come from the Congress. Anti-incumbency is, of course, a given. But that was there in 2004 too. It need not have been a crippling factor if only the Congress had any leaders capable of galvanizing the masses. Instead, the family has systematically destroyed the organization so the only visible faces left are that of Sonia or Rahul, both of who are insipid and incapable of carrying even a state leave alone a country.

It is that absence of a viable alternative that is propelling Modi to power and will keep him there for the foreseeable future.

Modi has risen to the top of his party not because of help from Congress but because of solid support and backing from the RSS. Without RSS support Modi could never have outfought Advani.

by confuzzled dude Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:08 am

smArtha wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Every election since 1980 has been fought, not on an economic plank, but on an assumed fear of a communal BJP and the need to prevent it from coming to power. India is the only country where the opposition is voted out of power in every election. To allay the fear of the "fear mongers" one has to simply cite the defeat of the reasonably successful BJP government in 2004 - again fought on the 2002 riots. So, should Modi and BJP ends up with blood on their hands in 2019, they can always be thrown out - there has been precedence in 1977 and 2004. Instead to simply disenfranchise an opposition - perennially - on an assumed and imaginary projection of the past is neither fair nor democratic.

Good point and the irony is that the Congress and their supporters blame the BJP for cultivating a fear of Muslims among some sections of Hindus while they do the same thing i.e. create a fear of BJP among the rest of the population, media and political spectrum. Appeasement of a community, way more than the democratic norms of protection of minorities and offering doles to retain such community vote banks pre-dates the BJP's origin or Sang's significant influence in political landscape of the country.

If only the BJP severed its ties with Hindu extremists. BTW, calling bigot a bigot doesn't make one Muslim or Christian apologist. Unlike Hindutva mob which routinely castigates entire community, BJP critics only blame a segment of Hindu population that is prejudiced and indulges in discrimination & extremism.

by Propagandhi711 Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:58 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:
>>CD,

In politics anything is possible, but you go on the basis of the snapshot you have at a particular moment. The world has changed a lot since the 80s, especially in what India brings to the table on the global front. Congress in fact may have missed the boat on this paradigm shift , beating the drum on the same old issues. The younger generation is more aware, more ambitious and more confident. A big part of this game is expectations.
I wouldn't read too much into this election cycle, this is more anti-incumbency than anything else; Modi happens to be in the right place at the right time.

except for his uncle, comrade shortchanges everyone and everything to happenstance & luck. but uncle, oh no he strived to get where he got and it was all due to tireless work for the poor

by Propagandhi711 Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:01 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
smArtha wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:I think you're taking a very narrow view (economy) and compromising fully knowing the baggage he comes with. He actively participated or supported 3 of the high profile communal events that took place. Even if you want give him credit for his efforts on economy front, 3 of the 4 states in the south, in spite of the issues, did as well as or better than Gujarat. Why is everybody (especially media) singing hosannas of Modi because he is a NORT INDIAN and speaks HINDI fluently. I don't think that kind of vetting process or qualification bodes well for India's progress in this and age. South has always shown progress than other parts of India, if anything a leader from South may have better vision than Modi.

Are those south leaders now contesting for the PM spot? If not, what is your point? Electorate can only choose based on the options they are offered. If they have the choice to choose their candidates and leaders (like the US Primaries), India would have produced more responsible leaders.
There are better candidates in BJP than Modi e.g. Raman Singh, Shivraj Singh, have no baggage; don't have Reliance backing either. Comparison to South is to prove that Modi's economic-success is nothing extraordinary to gloat about. Several other states have achieved similar levels of success. In fact Modi underachieved, if we were to go by the theories floated on SuCH that "corruption-free-governance-promotes-growth" & "Modi-is-Mr.Clean". His achievements should have been head & shoulders above corrupt regimes

>>>I think you are underestimating the value of this and a business-friendly posture in a global context. As far as the baggage goes (much of which remains to be proven), commerce is a-moral. This really is a case of ' if you build it, they will come'. I am not familiar with the two others you have mentioned, but the modi fever won't transfer to them. You cannot deny this guy's charisma.
I might be but India is definitely overestimating Modi's capabilities I can only hope they won't be disappointed. I can't help but be cynical after having seen what happened to Mr. Clean of mid '80s. Majority of Modi's supporters are in their 20s have no idea about past let's hope that history won't repeat.

whaaaaaaa? what is it that I'm reading? the same comrade who stated that corruption is not an issue is professing disappointment that VP singh turned out to be corrupt? I thought that was fully accepted and even healthy per your manifesto, comrade?

by Idéfix Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:35 am

smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:I agree with most of the points in the article. I hope that NDA does not win this election. If it does, I hope it wins narrowly enough that alliance partners force someone other Modi as PM.

Let's say your wish is granted, what is the alternative you wish assumes power? UPA-3 with depleted strength and support from more splinter groups or an umbrella of these splinter groups supported from outside by Congress? And why do you think any of that is better for India than the NDA with or without Modi?

I believe a third front government is preferable to Modi, despite the inherent instability of such governments. I do not want the current mess under the Empress to continue into a third term. I do not trust Modi and do not want him to become Prime Minister. I am afraid his rule will fundamentally undermine democratic institutions, further marginalize and alienate religious minorities, further empower the rich at the expense of the poor, and take the country in the wrong direction. If Modi does become PM, I hope my current fears turn out to be wild paranoia.

by Idéfix Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:40 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:A big help for Modi has come from the Congress. Anti-incumbency is, of course, a given. But that was there in 2004 too. It need not have been a crippling factor if only the Congress had any leaders capable of galvanizing the masses. Instead, the family has systematically destroyed the organization so the only visible faces left are that of Sonia or Rahul, both of who are insipid and incapable of carrying even a state leave alone a country.

It is that absence of a viable alternative that is propelling Modi to power and will keep him there for the foreseeable future.

+1. If they lose this election as expected, the bankrupt party will turn to Priyanka as its savior. It will be another sad irony in the glorious history of the Indian National Congress when it emulates the PPP with its own Bhutto-Zardari combination.

by truthbetold Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:48 am

Idéfix wrote:
smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:I agree with most of the points in the article. I hope that NDA does not win this election. If it does, I hope it wins narrowly enough that alliance partners force someone other Modi as PM.

Let's say your wish is granted, what is the alternative you wish assumes power? UPA-3 with depleted strength and support from more splinter groups or an umbrella of these splinter groups supported from outside by Congress? And why do you think any of that is better for India than the NDA with or without Modi?
I believe a third front government is preferable to Modi, despite the inherent instability of such governments. I do not want the current mess under the Empress to continue into a third term. I do not trust Modi and do not want him to become Prime Minister. I am afraid his rule will fundamentally undermine democratic institutions, further marginalize and alienate religious minorities, further empower the rich at the expense of the poor, and take the country in the wrong direction. If Modi does become PM, I hope my current fears turn out to be wild paranoia.

other than alienate religious minorities, where is any objective evidence of modi being any significantly different than average Indian politician? Sonia by concentrating decision making power in her and her coterie is more dangerous to India but India survived. Cronyism capitalism is worse than a pro capital policy. A competent leader offering good governance is the need of hour these days. I wish India could elect nitish kumar but the fight is between modi and rahul. In any case, other religious intolerance, rest of the charges against modi are gross mischaracterizations and exaggerations.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:33 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:A big help for Modi has come from the Congress. Anti-incumbency is, of course, a given. But that was there in 2004 too. It need not have been a crippling factor if only the Congress had any leaders capable of galvanizing the masses. Instead, the family has systematically destroyed the organization so the only visible faces left are that of Sonia or Rahul, both of who are insipid and incapable of carrying even a state leave alone a country.

It is that absence of a viable alternative that is propelling Modi to power and will keep him there for the foreseeable future.
+1. If they lose this election as expected, the bankrupt party will turn to Priyanka as its savior. It will be another sad irony in the glorious history of the Indian National Congress when it emulates the PPP with its own Bhutto-Zardari combination.

Priyanka entering the Congress - which is inevitable - will make Congress even more of a corrupt organization. Expect a split in the party and also in the personal life of Priyanka.

BJP will split before 2019, Modi will get cocky and will do a Vaghela on RSS and an Indira on BJP.

by smArtha Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:20 pm

Idéfix wrote:I am afraid his rule will fundamentally undermine democratic institutions, further marginalize and alienate religious minorities, further empower the rich at the expense of the poor, and take the country in the wrong direction. If Modi does become PM, I hope my current fears turn out to be wild paranoia.

By 'further', you do agree, that in the last 6+ decade,s with Congress ruling at the centre and states and various third front type leaders ruling different parts of India, religious minorities were marginalized/alienated and rich were empowered at the expense of poor. Obviously, those Congress/left/third front rulers did perpetuate those ills you mentioned. And your concern seems Modi belongs to the same class and will continue 'furthering' the same.

If reversing that is the objective, which Third front leader has better record in that? Since you preferred an unstable Third front Govt over an NDA without Modi, I'd think that such a 'third front' leader indeed has better record on the points you mentioned. At the least better than peers from the NDA/BJP ranks.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:31 pm

Idéfix wrote:
I believe a third front government is preferable to Modi, despite the inherent instability of such governments. I do not want the current mess under the Empress to continue into a third term. I do not trust Modi and do not want him to become Prime Minister. I am afraid his rule will fundamentally undermine democratic institutions, further marginalize and alienate religious minorities, further empower the rich at the expense of the poor, and take the country in the wrong direction. If Modi does become PM, I hope my current fears turn out to be wild paranoia.

Marginalizing minorities is unfair, but to marginalize the majority will be a disaster.

What the minority wants is South African Style - Koranic Apartheid.

Congress said it will work for Muslims (Sonia Mata ji to Bhukhari). Did any (BJP) politician ever say they would work for hindus ?

Who is communal here ? Who is being fair ? Who is secular ?

by Guest Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:04 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
I believe a third front government is preferable to Modi, despite the inherent instability of such governments. I do not want the current mess under the Empress to continue into a third term. I do not trust Modi and do not want him to become Prime Minister. I am afraid his rule will fundamentally undermine democratic institutions, further marginalize and alienate religious minorities, further empower the rich at the expense of the poor, and take the country in the wrong direction. If Modi does become PM, I hope my current fears turn out to be wild paranoia.

Marginalizing minorities is unfair, but to marginalize the majority will be a disaster.

What the minority wants is South African Style - Koranic Apartheid.

Congress said it will work for Muslims (Sonia Mata ji to Bhukhari). Did any (BJP) politician ever say they would work for hindus ?

Who is communal here ? Who is being fair ? Who is secular ?

Modi is for neither marginalizing nor favoring anyone. Equal opportunities for all. Now that IS secularism. Is it not?

by smArtha Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:07 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:If only the BJP severed its ties with Hindu extremists. BTW, calling bigot a bigot doesn't make one Muslim or Christian apologist. Unlike Hindutva mob which routinely castigates entire community, BJP critics only blame a segment of Hindu population that is prejudiced and indulges in discrimination & extremism.

If you are constantly engaged in talking or acting against Hindu extremists and silently ignoring or even worse appeasing those from Muslim/Christian communities then you are a bigot and an apologist for those sects or communities.

by nevada Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:58 pm

Kinnera wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
I believe a third front government is preferable to Modi, despite the inherent instability of such governments. I do not want the current mess under the Empress to continue into a third term. I do not trust Modi and do not want him to become Prime Minister. I am afraid his rule will fundamentally undermine democratic institutions, further marginalize and alienate religious minorities, further empower the rich at the expense of the poor, and take the country in the wrong direction. If Modi does become PM, I hope my current fears turn out to be wild paranoia.

Marginalizing minorities is unfair, but to marginalize the majority will be a disaster.

What the minority wants is South African Style - Koranic Apartheid.

Congress said it will work for Muslims (Sonia Mata ji to Bhukhari). Did any (BJP) politician ever say they would work for hindus ?

Who is communal here ? Who is being fair ? Who is secular ?

Modi is for neither marginalizing nor favoring anyone. Equal opportunities for all. Now that IS secularism. Is it not?

That is correct. My aunt and uncle recently went on a tour of Gujarat. They visited the Gir forest, Rann of Kutch among other places. The sarpanch of the village which is near the Rann of Kutch is a Muslim. He was a gracious host and spoke enthusiastically to my aunt about how he had partnered with Modi to develop that place. He has a pic of him with Modi on his wall. The rest of India could learn from the people of Gujarat who are productive and look for opportunities to develop.

Here's an old article about him:
http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/village-in-gujarat-s-rann-of-kutch-is-now-on-world-tourism-map-31778.html

by Guest Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:04 pm

nevada wrote:
Kinnera wrote:
Modi is for neither marginalizing nor favoring anyone. Equal opportunities for all. Now that IS secularism. Is it not?
That is correct. My aunt and uncle recently went on a tour of Gujarat. They visited the Gir forest, Rann of Kutch among other places. The sarpanch of the village which is near the Rann of Kutch is a Muslim. He was a gracious host and spoke enthusiastically to my aunt about how he had partnered with Modi to develop that place. He has a pic of him with Modi on his wall. The rest of India could learn from the people of Gujarat who are productive and look for opportunities to develop.

Here's an old article about him:
http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/village-in-gujarat-s-rann-of-kutch-is-now-on-world-tourism-map-31778.html

Unfortunately, ppl (psuedos) equate secularism to showing favoritism to the minorities. That is so wrong. Treat everyone equally. The differences among the people are caused more by this differentiation/favoritism than anything else.

by truthbetold Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:08 pm

The jains, patels, brahmins and other types of gujaratis that I talked to have positive stories of gujarat which seem to align with Modi's story than mysterious descriptions we hear on such from magazines like outlook.

by truthbetold Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:22 pm

Criticism that has some basis but most importantly that people believe:

UPA criticism of Modi: He is responsible for 2002 gujarat riots. RSS is a communal organization.

BJP, Modi criticism of UPA/congress: Incomptent, remote control, govt.polcy paralysis, corruption (2G, CWG, coal scam, adarsh scam, helicoptor scam, YSR etc.), price rise, slowing economy, stagnant job growth.

Guess whose arguments are bought by Indian people?

Congress cried wolf(danger to secularism) once too often.

by Guest Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:24 pm

truthbetold wrote:Criticism that has some basis but most importantly that people believe:

UPA criticism of Modi: He is responsible for 2002 gujarat riots. RSS is a communal organization.

Guess whose arguments are bought by Indian people?

Congress cried wolf(danger to secularism) once too often.

The more they bring this up, the more the indian people are going to vote for Modi.

by confuzzled dude Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:57 pm

"Even more than the pace of growth, it is Modi’s investor-friendly reputation that has won him plaudits. From 2000 to July 2013, Gujarat alone received more than Rs 40,469 crore ($8.8 billion) in foreign direct investment (FDI). The state accounted for roughly 4 percent of all FDI flows into India during that period. While this represents an impressive haul, the state of Maharashtra received eight times and Delhi more than four times as much FDI. Gujarat also lagged behind the states of Tamil Nadu and Karnataka, and it just barely outpaced Andhra Pradesh. "

"The share of investment projects under implementation in Gujarat between 2001 and 2011 almost perfectly mirrors the all-India trend; there is no clear indication that Gujarat deviated sharply from India as a whole. There has also been a large gap between lavish project announcements made at Modi’s biannual investor gathering, Vibrant Gujarat, and the projects that materialize."

http://carnegieendowment.org/2013/10/09/modi-debate-worth-having-in-india/gpfj

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