Re: Ferguson burning

by Hellsangel Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:36 pm

Head loses his head.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/02/justice/ferguson-protests-investigation/index.html

by Hellsangel Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:52 pm

In other news:
Where is the outrage?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:55 pm

woman spearheading the federal probe:

http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-justice-department-vanita-gupta-153750781.html

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:13 pm

Hellsangel wrote:In other news:
Where is the outrage?

where does one begin? how about here:

Robert Joseph Mitchell, 17, has been charged as an adult with first-degree murder and armed criminal action in early morning attack. Two others, ages 15 and 16, are in custody, and a fourth suspect remains at large, according to police.

also, does the thought that the perpetrators here are civilians, whereas darren wilson was a police officer employed by the local govt make any difference to the way people have reacted?

by Hellsangel Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:14 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:In other news:
Where is the outrage?

where does one begin? how about here:

Robert Joseph Mitchell, 17, has been charged as an adult with first-degree murder and armed criminal action in early morning attack. Two others, ages 15 and 16, are in custody, and a fourth suspect remains at large, according to police.

also, does the thought that the perpetrators here are civilians, whereas darren wilson was a police officer employed by the local govt make any difference to the way people have reacted?

Since it is a police officer in Ferguson, Libby logic dictates that it must be racially motivated.

by Hellsangel Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:24 am

CNN tries the middle-path.

A search in 2012 for deaths caused by "legal intervention" as a result of the use of a firearm -- that is, a police shooting -- yields just the numbers O'Reilly cited Monday night. In the 15-19 age range, the database shows 20 white people killed in 2012 and 14 blacks.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:01 pm

Hellsangel wrote:CNN tries the middle-path.

A search in 2012 for deaths caused by "legal intervention" as a result of the use of a firearm -- that is, a police shooting -- yields just the numbers O'Reilly cited Monday night. In the 15-19 age range, the database shows 20 white people killed in 2012 and 14 blacks.

that is still disproportionately more black victims.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:14 pm

too bad o'reilly missed grade school math.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:28 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:CNN tries the middle-path.

A search in 2012 for deaths caused by "legal intervention" as a result of the use of a firearm -- that is, a police shooting -- yields just the numbers O'Reilly cited Monday night. In the 15-19 age range, the database shows 20 white people killed in 2012 and 14 blacks.

that is still disproportionately more black victims.

How do you calculate "this" proportion ? Based on the demographics, number of guns controlled, boys and girl ratio, income ratio? Applied nationally, regionally or city size?

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:33 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:CNN tries the middle-path.

A search in 2012 for deaths caused by "legal intervention" as a result of the use of a firearm -- that is, a police shooting -- yields just the numbers O'Reilly cited Monday night. In the 15-19 age range, the database shows 20 white people killed in 2012 and 14 blacks.

that is still disproportionately more black victims.

How do you calculate "this" proportion ? Based on the demographics, number of guns controlled, boys and girl ratio, income ratio? Applied nationally, regionally or city size?

(#total blacks killed by "legal intervention"/total black population) versus a similar number for whites.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:43 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:CNN tries the middle-path.

A search in 2012 for deaths caused by "legal intervention" as a result of the use of a firearm -- that is, a police shooting -- yields just the numbers O'Reilly cited Monday night. In the 15-19 age range, the database shows 20 white people killed in 2012 and 14 blacks.

that is still disproportionately more black victims.

How do you calculate "this" proportion ? Based on the demographics, number of guns controlled, boys and girl ratio, income ratio? Applied nationally, regionally or city size?

(#total blacks killed by "legal intervention"/total black population) versus a similar number for whites.

But doesn't that ration relate directly to employment, financial situation, region ? it is not uncommon to see cops patrolling the bad areas of cities a lot more - expecting troubles, and therefore see trouble in everything. You will notice in the poor neighborhoods blacks standing in small groups in front of their houses, playing in streets, yelling across the street - much like the poor neighborhoods in India. The cops EXPECT these small "groups" to ignite trouble all the time - in the words of a 10-49.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:59 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:CNN tries the middle-path.

A search in 2012 for deaths caused by "legal intervention" as a result of the use of a firearm -- that is, a police shooting -- yields just the numbers O'Reilly cited Monday night. In the 15-19 age range, the database shows 20 white people killed in 2012 and 14 blacks.

that is still disproportionately more black victims.

How do you calculate "this" proportion ? Based on the demographics, number of guns controlled, boys and girl ratio, income ratio? Applied nationally, regionally or city size?

(#total blacks killed by "legal intervention"/total black population) versus a similar number for whites.

But doesn't that ration relate directly to employment, financial situation, region ? it is not uncommon to see cops patrolling the bad areas of cities a lot more - expecting troubles, and therefore see trouble in everything. You will notice in the poor neighborhoods blacks standing in small groups in front of their houses, playing in streets, yelling across the street - much like the poor neighborhoods in India. The cops EXPECT these small "groups" to ignite trouble all the time - in the words of a 10-49.

there are always reasons and they are worth discussing, but did o'reilly get into those discussions? he was trying to show that fewer blacks got shot to death by cops than whites. in absolute terms he is right, but there is zero information in that number. normalizing it to the population has a bit more information, i.e. blacks get killed disproportionately at the hands of cops. that doesn't mean that all the cops who are shooting black people down are racially motivated. people like o'reilly are seldom into nuance. to use something he said to frame a discussion is pointless.

by Hellsangel Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:15 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

that is still disproportionately more black victims.

How do you calculate "this" proportion ? Based on the demographics, number of guns controlled, boys and girl ratio, income ratio? Applied nationally, regionally or city size?

(#total blacks killed by "legal intervention"/total black population) versus a similar number for whites.

But doesn't that ration relate directly to employment, financial situation, region ? it is not uncommon to see cops patrolling the bad areas of cities a lot more - expecting troubles, and therefore see trouble in everything. You will notice in the poor neighborhoods blacks standing in small groups in front of their houses, playing in streets, yelling across the street - much like the poor neighborhoods in India. The cops EXPECT these small "groups" to ignite trouble all the time - in the words of a 10-49.

there are always reasons and they are worth discussing, but did o'reilly get into those discussions? he was trying to show that fewer blacks got shot to death by cops than whites. in absolute terms he is right, but there is zero information in that number. normalizing it to the population has a bit more information, i.e. blacks get killed disproportionately at the hands of cops. that doesn't mean that all the cops who are shooting black people down are racially motivated. people like o'reilly are seldom into nuance. to use something he said to frame a discussion is pointless.

Hmm. But Darren Wilson was?

In any case...

by Hellsangel Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:21 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:CNN tries the middle-path.

A search in 2012 for deaths caused by "legal intervention" as a result of the use of a firearm -- that is, a police shooting -- yields just the numbers O'Reilly cited Monday night. In the 15-19 age range, the database shows 20 white people killed in 2012 and 14 blacks.

that is still disproportionately more black victims.

How do you calculate "this" proportion ? Based on the demographics, number of guns controlled, boys and girl ratio, income ratio? Applied nationally, regionally or city size?

(#total blacks killed by "legal intervention"/total black population) versus a similar number for whites.

Let me put it you differently. When you hear the word terrorist in the 21st century, what religion do you think of first?

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:22 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

How do you calculate "this" proportion ? Based on the demographics, number of guns controlled, boys and girl ratio, income ratio? Applied nationally, regionally or city size?

(#total blacks killed by "legal intervention"/total black population) versus a similar number for whites.

But doesn't that ration relate directly to employment, financial situation, region ? it is not uncommon to see cops patrolling the bad areas of cities a lot more - expecting troubles, and therefore see trouble in everything. You will notice in the poor neighborhoods blacks standing in small groups in front of their houses, playing in streets, yelling across the street - much like the poor neighborhoods in India. The cops EXPECT these small "groups" to ignite trouble all the time - in the words of a 10-49.

there are always reasons and they are worth discussing, but did o'reilly get into those discussions? he was trying to show that fewer blacks got shot to death by cops than whites. in absolute terms he is right, but there is zero information in that number. normalizing it to the population has a bit more information, i.e. blacks get killed disproportionately at the hands of cops. that doesn't mean that all the cops who are shooting black people down are racially motivated. people like o'reilly are seldom into nuance. to use something he said to frame a discussion is pointless.

Hmm. But Darren Wilson was?

In any case...

i don't remember ever saying that, but the grand jury procedure and especially the prosecutor's background presented a serious COI that it almost seemed like a joke.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:25 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
i don't remember ever saying that, but the grand jury procedure and especially the prosecutor's background presented a serious COI that it almost seemed like a joke.

There are no angels on either side in this episode.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:26 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:CNN tries the middle-path.

A search in 2012 for deaths caused by "legal intervention" as a result of the use of a firearm -- that is, a police shooting -- yields just the numbers O'Reilly cited Monday night. In the 15-19 age range, the database shows 20 white people killed in 2012 and 14 blacks.

that is still disproportionately more black victims.

How do you calculate "this" proportion ? Based on the demographics, number of guns controlled, boys and girl ratio, income ratio? Applied nationally, regionally or city size?

(#total blacks killed by "legal intervention"/total black population) versus a similar number for whites.

Let me put it you differently. When you hear the word terrorist in the 21st century, what religion do you think of first?

i hear you. profiling is useful, but it also has a cost on individuals, innocent individuals. when i was younger, i used to get pulled out of a security line at airports all the time. not so much any longer. i never whined. in fact it made me feel safer. no easy answers.

by Propagandhi711 Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:22 pm

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/26/health/ferguson-michael-brown-pathologist-credentials/index.html

by FluteHolder Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:42 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/26/health/ferguson-michael-brown-pathologist-credentials/index.html

>>
Interesting. So even they find him unqualified, the authorities cannot go after him fearing old cases being overturned... Way to go!

by nevada Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:53 pm

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A New York City grand jury decided not to charge a white police officer in the chokehold death of an unarmed black man, sparking outrage and protests on Wednesday, and the U.S. Justice Department said it would investigate the incident. Eric Garner, a 43-year-old father of six, was accused of illegally selling cigarettes on July 17 when police officers tackled him and put him in a chokehold. Police said he had been resisting arrest. The city's medical examiner previously ruled the death a homicide.

by Hellsangel Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:38 am

Side note. No one is talking about this.

The prosecutor in Ferguson holds an elected position. What is his party affiliation?

What is the party affiliation of Governor Jay Nixon ?

by FluteHolder Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:37 am

On the nyc/chokehold death, why didnot the guy just listen to the officers and allowed him to handcuff. What he was doing must be illegal and if you are confronted with so many officers, why resist arrest? He could have just allowed them to handcuff and protested non-violently. Unnecessary death which could have been avoided, if he co-operated with the police.

by truthbetold Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:03 am

Flute
Does resisting arrest justifies killing?

by southindian Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:18 am

FluteHolder wrote:On the nyc/chokehold death, why didnot the guy just listen to the officers and allowed him to handcuff. What he was doing must be illegal and if you are confronted with so many officers, why resist arrest? He could have just allowed them to handcuff and protested non-violently. Unnecessary death which could have been avoided, if he co-operated with the police.

The NYC/chuckhold death guy did not resist arrest.

He had raised his hands. Check
He had NO weapons. Check
He did not shout. Check
He did not resist arrest. Check

The only problem was that the black guy was bigger and heavier than all police officers around him. Its on video. He resisted after he was put on chuckhold. I would do that too.... SO I CAN BREATHE.

He was killed by the police officer.

I don't understand why US police ALWAYS have to FORCIBLY shove a person to the ground to put on handcuffs.

by FluteHolder Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:08 pm

Who has the right to arrest (the violator) or the Police who has the right to suspect you when you are caught violating the law.

He was selling cigarettes which is against the law and if he had complied to be handcuffed all this would not happened. The police have to protect their lives too. Had the offender agreed to handcuff (since he very well know he was violating the law), the issue would have resolved after him taken into police station. Instead he resisted/not allowed the officer/s to do his job. What if his hands are free and if he had a gun/weapon and injures the officers? That is the reason for handcuffing.

Even Devyani must have arrested/handcuffed or body searched? It may be the SOP.

After the due process if you protest within the law you could have saved his life. I would say it was an accident mainly due to the non-cooperation of the offender to police instructions.

by FluteHolder Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:10 pm

Even if he had no weapons, I think it is the Police's right to hand cuff the offender if they believe there could be a threat. So since the offender in this case violating the law, he should have agreed to handcuff and all would have solved at Police Station/court. I think the Chris Rock video says it all.

by nevada Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:57 pm

Dead men tell no tales. We only hear one side of the story from the cop and the rest is mostly conjecture. Other than the Rodney King case, are there any other high profile cases of poilice brutality where the victim survived to tell the full story? It seems that only cases that ended up in death get the most amount of coverage.

by Hellsangel Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:00 pm

nevada wrote:Dead men tell no tales. We only hear one side of the story from the cop and the rest is mostly conjecture. Other than the Rodney King case, are there any other high profile cases of poilice brutality where the victim survived to tell the full story? It seems that only cases that ended up in death get the most amount of coverage.

Abner Louima

by michelle2 Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:27 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:woman spearheading the federal probe:

http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-justice-department-vanita-gupta-153750781.html

she is the daughter of raj gupta, an iit-b alum, who was the c.e.o. of the fortune 500 chemical company, rohm and haas. vanita gupta attended yale, then (perhaps after attending nyu's law school), got a wrongly convicted prisoner released through the legal system. that work of hers received considerable publicity, and i think, a movie was made of it.

by Hellsangel Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:24 pm

by bw Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:29 pm

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-police-in-america-are-becoming-illegitimate-20141205?page=2

That was economic regulation turned lethal, a situation made all the more ridiculous by the fact that we no longer prosecute the countless serious economic crimes committed in this same city. A ferry ride away from Staten Island, on Wall Street, the pure unmolested freedom to fleece whoever you want is considered the sacred birthright of every rake with a briefcase.

If Lloyd Blankfein or Jamie Dimon had come up with the concept of selling loosies, they'd go to their graves defending it as free economic expression that "creates liquidity" and should never be regulated.

Taking it one step further, if Eric Garner had been selling naked credit default swaps instead of cigarettes – if in other words he'd set up a bookmaking operation in which passersby could bet on whether people made their home mortgage payments or companies paid off their bonds – the police by virtue of a federal law called the Commodity Futures Modernization Act would have been barred from even approaching him.

by nevada Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:19 pm

bw wrote:http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-police-in-america-are-becoming-illegitimate-20141205?page=2

That was economic regulation turned lethal, a situation made all the more ridiculous by the fact that we no longer prosecute the countless serious economic crimes committed in this same city. A ferry ride away from Staten Island, on Wall Street, the pure unmolested freedom to fleece whoever you want is considered the sacred birthright of every rake with a briefcase.

If Lloyd Blankfein or Jamie Dimon had come up with the concept of selling loosies, they'd go to their graves defending it as free economic expression that "creates liquidity" and should never be regulated.

Taking it one step further, if Eric Garner had been selling naked credit default swaps instead of cigarettes – if in other words he'd set up a bookmaking operation in which passersby could bet on whether people made their home mortgage payments or companies paid off their bonds – the police by virtue of a federal law called the Commodity Futures Modernization Act would have been barred from even approaching him.

Yeah, just like Uber, airBnb etc who have made a fortune breaking rules.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:51 pm

bw wrote:http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-police-in-america-are-becoming-illegitimate-20141205?page=2

That was economic regulation turned lethal, a situation made all the more ridiculous by the fact that we no longer prosecute the countless serious economic crimes committed in this same city. A ferry ride away from Staten Island, on Wall Street, the pure unmolested freedom to fleece whoever you want is considered the sacred birthright of every rake with a briefcase.

If Lloyd Blankfein or Jamie Dimon had come up with the concept of selling loosies, they'd go to their graves defending it as free economic expression that "creates liquidity" and should never be regulated.

Taking it one step further, if Eric Garner had been selling naked credit default swaps instead of cigarettes – if in other words he'd set up a bookmaking operation in which passersby could bet on whether people made their home mortgage payments or companies paid off their bonds – the police by virtue of a federal law called the Commodity Futures Modernization Act would have been barred from even approaching him.

right on! taibbi has been on the ball on this one for a while now. there is always a disproportionate reaction to petty street crime which stands in sharp contrast to no policing of white collar crime on a massive scale. it is absolutely correct to point this out.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:37 am

bw wrote:http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-police-in-america-are-becoming-illegitimate-20141205?page=2

That was economic regulation turned lethal, a situation made all the more ridiculous by the fact that we no longer prosecute the countless serious economic crimes committed in this same city. A ferry ride away from Staten Island, on Wall Street, the pure unmolested freedom to fleece whoever you want is considered the sacred birthright of every rake with a briefcase.

If Lloyd Blankfein or Jamie Dimon had come up with the concept of selling loosies, they'd go to their graves defending it as free economic expression that "creates liquidity" and should never be regulated.

Only proves that "I" am a reall visionary.... Razz

I have been screaming at this Wall Street Looters and calling for confiscation of ALL THEIR properties - down totheir last penny as soon as they are convicted. Treat them like drug dealers and incarcerate them for life. A few cases and viola....Wall street will get the same respect as the Messican druglords.

by bw Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:09 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
bw wrote:http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-police-in-america-are-becoming-illegitimate-20141205?page=2

That was economic regulation turned lethal, a situation made all the more ridiculous by the fact that we no longer prosecute the countless serious economic crimes committed in this same city. A ferry ride away from Staten Island, on Wall Street, the pure unmolested freedom to fleece whoever you want is considered the sacred birthright of every rake with a briefcase.

If Lloyd Blankfein or Jamie Dimon had come up with the concept of selling loosies, they'd go to their graves defending it as free economic expression that "creates liquidity" and should never be regulated.

Only proves that "I" am a reall visionary.... I have been screaming at this Wall Street Looters and calling for confiscation of ALL THEIR properties - down totheir last penny as soon as they are convicted. Treat them like drug dealers and incarcerate them for life. A few cases and viola....Wall street will get the same respect as the Messican druglords.

all very well. if they do that, who will fund your politicians in that wonderful democracy where people have the freedom to pick between two wall street run parties?

by Hellsangel Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:00 pm

Feds clear the officer.

by Propagandhi711 Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:27 am

holder must be seething in his pajamas just about now. there's got to be something to hang on the officer?? maybe someone can dig up the number of traffic tickets he wrote and do barcharts showing disproportionate number of blacks being cited by him?

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