Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
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Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
Few days back, i came across a Choliya Brahmin through my friend. While casually interacting with him, there was a discussion about the sharp divide among different sects of brahmins. In that he was saying that the Vadama brahmins treats them as untouchables, and will perform purification when the choliya brahmins entered their house.
This was very interesting to me, and as usual, i wanted to explore more on this. I asked him more about this, and i am summarising what he explained to me.
https://orientviews.wordpress.com/2013/10/02/native-brahmins-and-non-native-brahmins/
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the situation is similar in West Bengal. In Bengal, there are two types of brahmins: local bengali brahmins like Lahiri and Sanyal, and brahmins who migrated to Bengal (Chattopadhyaya or Chatterjee, Bandopadyaya or Banerjee, Gangopadhyaya or Ganguli and Mukhopadhyaya or Mukherjee). In the instance of Bengal, the brahmin immigrants are all Kanyakubja brahmins who were originally from Uttar Pradesh.
As in Tamil Nadu, the migrant brahmins in Bengal consider themselves superior to the local brahmins.
This was very interesting to me, and as usual, i wanted to explore more on this. I asked him more about this, and i am summarising what he explained to me.
The vadama brahmins are those brahmins who came from North long back, and they enjoyed more power in Chola kingdom than the choliya brahmins who already lived there. The Choliya brahmins were called as Tamil Brahmins. There is no matrimonial alliance b/w the vadama and tamil brahmins, eventhough both are smarthas. The vadama consider themselves as superior than choliya brahmins and wont allow them inside their houses. The religious rites for the deceased (like Thithi, etc) was attended mostly by the tamil brahmins, whereas the vadama do the more lucrative yaga and yagnyas for the royals. Because of this, the choliya brahmins, who do such low end jobs are NOT respected. He said, that those who do homams earn a lot, but those who do rites for the deceased, do not earn much.
https://orientviews.wordpress.com/2013/10/02/native-brahmins-and-non-native-brahmins/
---
the situation is similar in West Bengal. In Bengal, there are two types of brahmins: local bengali brahmins like Lahiri and Sanyal, and brahmins who migrated to Bengal (Chattopadhyaya or Chatterjee, Bandopadyaya or Banerjee, Gangopadhyaya or Ganguli and Mukhopadhyaya or Mukherjee). In the instance of Bengal, the brahmin immigrants are all Kanyakubja brahmins who were originally from Uttar Pradesh.
As in Tamil Nadu, the migrant brahmins in Bengal consider themselves superior to the local brahmins.
Guest- Guest
Re: Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
My family is a complete mixture of many subcashtus. Those two aren't the only subsects. There are many more. There are vathimas (a corruption of the term pathineNmar -- those hailing from a group of 18 villages in the Thanjavur district), Ashta sahasram, BrihacharaNam and so on. The point is historically they may have been from different places, but they are undoubtedly Tamilians.
There is an interesting turn of phrase associated with the Chozhiyan Brahmins. When someone is doing something suspiciously altruistic (presumably in the hope receiving a benefit to oneself) we sometimes say 'Chozhiyan kudumi chumma AdAthu'. The literal meaning of that is a Chozhiyan's tuft doesn't wiggle without reason.
There is an interesting turn of phrase associated with the Chozhiyan Brahmins. When someone is doing something suspiciously altruistic (presumably in the hope receiving a benefit to oneself) we sometimes say 'Chozhiyan kudumi chumma AdAthu'. The literal meaning of that is a Chozhiyan's tuft doesn't wiggle without reason.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:My family is a complete mixture of many subcashtus. Those two aren't the only subsects. There are many more. There are vathimas (a corruption of the term pathineNmar -- those hailing from a group of 18 villages in the Thanjavur district), Ashta sahasram, BrihacharaNam and so on. The point is historically they may have been from different places, but they are undoubtedly Tamilians.
the point is that the Cholas were patronizing the Vadama brahmins over and above the local brahmins. Why so? Clearly because the Vadamas had a deeper knowledge of hindu rituals.
am i to understand that traditionally it is quite ok for inter-marriages to take place between vadama brahmins and choliya brahmins?
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:There is an interesting turn of phrase associated with the Chozhiyan Brahmins. When someone is doing something suspiciously altruistic (presumably in the hope receiving a benefit to oneself) we sometimes say 'Chozhiyan kudumi chumma AdAthu'. The literal meaning of that is a Chozhiyan's tuft doesn't wiggle without reason.
LOL.
Guest- Guest
Re: Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
I remember reading somewhere long ago that Saurav Ganguly is a Kanya kubja brahmin. At that time I had no clue what that caste indicates. It is iteresting to know that all the "jees" plus ganguly of Bengal are immigrants from the same area. Within TN, do the Vadamas speak the local language or Hindi or Sanskrit?
silvermani- Posts : 1631
Join date : 2014-01-18
Re: Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
silvermani wrote:I remember reading somewhere long ago that Saurav Ganguly is a Kanya kubja brahmin. At that time I had no clue what that caste indicates. It is iteresting to know that all the "jees" plus ganguly of Bengal are immigrants from the same area. Within TN, do the Vadamas speak the local language or Hindi or Sanskrit?
of course the Vadamas will be speaking the local language since the migration took place a long time ago. the same goes for the migrant bengali brahmins who also speak the local language.
Guest- Guest
Re: Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
silvermani wrote:Within TN, do the Vadamas speak the local language or Hindi or Sanskrit?
Within Punjab, do the Punjabis speak Punjabi or Kazakh or Uzbek?
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
silvermani wrote: Within TN, do the Vadamas speak the local language or Hindi or Sanskrit?
They are Tamils. They speak Tamil.
Kayalvizhi- Posts : 3659
Join date : 2011-05-16
Re: Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
Kayalvizhi wrote:silvermani wrote: Within TN, do the Vadamas speak the local language or Hindi or Sanskrit?
They are Tamils. They speak Tamil.
இந்த மாதிரி கிறுக்குத்தனமான கேள்விக்கெல்லாம் கிறுக்குத்தனமான பதில்தான் சரி.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
Rashmun wrote:
am i to understand that traditionally it is quite ok for inter-marriages to take place between vadama brahmins and choliya brahmins?
While there are still very traditional Tamil Brahmin families who only look for partners within their subcastes, marrying across subcastes (but within the brahmin community) is the current norm. In fact Iyer-Iyengar marriages are as common as trans-subcaste marriages amongst Iyers and amongst Iyengars.
Much less common are true arranged marriages across castes. If you see a Mudaliar - Iyer pair or a Saiva Pillai - Iyer pair that's most likely not an arranged marriage.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
There are migrant communities in TN who still speak their original language - the Saurashtra people, for example. There are also Telugu people in TN who still speak it at home.MaxEntropy_Man wrote:silvermani wrote:Within TN, do the Vadamas speak the local language or Hindi or Sanskrit?
Within Punjab, do the Punjabis speak Punjabi or Kazakh or Uzbek?
silvermani- Posts : 1631
Join date : 2014-01-18
Re: Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
They speak with a Tamil accent. They are also afraid of DKheads with fanatic tendencies. I know Tamils don't like to hear this - communities that moved to TN during the Pallava, Chalukya, Nayaka, Maratha, etc., periods highly enriched "Tamil" culture.silvermani wrote:There are migrant communities in TN who still speak their original language - the Saurashtra people, for example. There are also Telugu people in TN who still speak it at home.MaxEntropy_Man wrote:silvermani wrote:Within TN, do the Vadamas speak the local language or Hindi or Sanskrit?
Within Punjab, do the Punjabis speak Punjabi or Kazakh or Uzbek?
Vakavaka Pakapaka- Posts : 7611
Join date : 2012-08-24
Re: Chola Kings and Vadama brahmins vs Choliya brahmins in Tamil Nadu
These same DKheads whine about the plight of Tamils in far off lands but want to marginalize every non Tamil ethnicity within TN.Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:They speak with a Tamil accent. They are also afraid of DKheads with fanatic tendencies. I know Tamils don't like to hear this - communities that moved to TN during the Pallava, Chalukya, Nayaka, Maratha, etc., periods highly enriched "Tamil" culture.silvermani wrote:There are migrant communities in TN who still speak their original language - the Saurashtra people, for example. There are also Telugu people in TN who still speak it at home.MaxEntropy_Man wrote:silvermani wrote:Within TN, do the Vadamas speak the local language or Hindi or Sanskrit?
Within Punjab, do the Punjabis speak Punjabi or Kazakh or Uzbek?
silvermani- Posts : 1631
Join date : 2014-01-18
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