etymology of non-native tamil words also of non-sanskritic origin

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:45 pm

there are quite a number of these words that are from portugese or dutch.

jannal (window) - from portugese janela
alamAri (cupboard) - from portugese armorio, also the root word of the english armoire
verandA (verandah) - portugese varanda
chAvi (key) - portugese chave
kOppai (drinking glass) - portugese copo
pIngAn (china plate) - portugese palangana
kakkUs (toilet; this was more popular two generations ago, not anymore) - dutch khakuis
pIppai (barrel) - portugese pipa

and so on. i am sure these have equivalents in other indian languages too.

by Guest Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:51 pm

heard only alamari, veranda (twisted to baramda by some), and chaabi (for key).

by Guest Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:58 pm

In telugu:

Alamara-cupboard or the godrej iron safe
Varanda
taalam chevi -key
pingaani- ceramic
peepah- barrel

The portugese words must've come from Goa?

by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:04 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:jannal (window) - from portugese janela
alamAri (cupboard) - from portugese armorio, also the root word of the english armoire
verandA (verandah) - portugese varanda
chAvi (key) - portugese chave
kOppai (drinking glass) - portugese copo
pIngAn (china plate) - portugese palangana
kakkUs (toilet; this was more popular two generations ago, not anymore) - dutch khakuis
pIppai (barrel) - portugese pipa

Good information. I would like toi see more posts like these from posters than picking a fight with rasmun.

But Rasmun fights get 1042 replies and this gets 3.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:09 pm

kinnera wrote:

The portugese words must've come from Goa?

the portugese landed in chennai in the 16th century and in fact built the st.thomas church in santhome, and the dutch i think arrived in the 18th century. so tamils and telugus in the then madras province had contacts with the portugese, independent of goa.

by Nila Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:22 pm

Idli (Only well known breakfast of TN) -from Kannada (Idi (Idiothu) +Ili (Ilisothu) - Ittu Ilisothu)

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:32 pm

Sasthi wrote:Idli (Only well known breakfast of TN) -from Kannada (Idi (Idiothu) +Ili (Ilisothu) - Ittu Ilisothu)

possible. kannada and tamil are very closely related. kannada is closer to tamil than it is to telugu, the script aside. telugu split away much earlier from proto dravidian than kannada and tamil split apart from each other.

by Kris Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:53 pm

Tracy Whitney wrote:heard only alamari, veranda (twisted to baramda by some), and chaabi (for key).

>>> I thinnk the pao in pav bhaji comes from portuguese ( 'pan' in spanish, 'pain' in french)

by Kris Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:59 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there are quite a number of these words that are from portugese or dutch.

jannal (window) - from portugese janela
alamAri (cupboard) - from portugese armorio, also the root word of the english armoire
verandA (verandah) - portugese varanda
chAvi (key) - portugese chave
kOppai (drinking glass) - portugese copo
pIngAn (china plate) - portugese palangana
kakkUs (toilet; this was more popular two generations ago, not anymore) - dutch khakuis
pIppai (barrel) - portugese pipa

and so on. i am sure these have equivalents in other indian languages too.

>>> I have heard the word 'randhal' or 'landar' from my cousins who lived near the tanjore area. I think this may have been a variant of 'lantern'/ Don;t know if this was a word limited to their family circles or a term that was in wide usage

by Idéfix Tue May 01, 2012 12:33 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:

The portugese words must've come from Goa?

the portugese landed in chennai in the 16th century and in fact built the st.thomas church in santhome, and the dutch i think arrived in the 18th century. so tamils and telugus in the then madras province had contacts with the portugese, independent of goa.

The Portuguese were actively involved in trade over much of southern India back in the 16th century. The writings of Domingo Paes did much to document details of the Vijayanagara Empire, its capital, and its ruler Krishnadeva Raya, for example.

by Idéfix Tue May 01, 2012 12:37 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:jannal (window) - from portugese janela

The Bangla word for window is jAlna. I wonder if it had anything to do with the Portuguese word.

Pretty much all the words you listed are present in Telugu as well. Another word that I wonder about is chAvi -- that's chAbi in Hindi and may occur in Sanskrit as well. If it doesn't occur in Sanskrit, but does in Hindi, Telugu and Tamil, that might argue for a Portuguese origin, but if it occurs in Sanskrit that may be the closer explanation.

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 1:12 am

panini press wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:jannal (window) - from portugese janela
The Bangla word for window is jAlna. I wonder if it had anything to do with the Portuguese word.

surely you mean jAnglA? i'm pretty certain in hindi, window is also called jAnglA.

by Idéfix Tue May 01, 2012 1:21 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:jannal (window) - from portugese janela
The Bangla word for window is jAlna. I wonder if it had anything to do with the Portuguese word.

surely you mean jAnglA? i'm pretty certain in hindi, window is also called jAnglA.

You know the language better than I do. I haven't read the word anywhere, but I spelled it the way it sounded to me... I thought they were saying jAlnA Ta bondo koro or something like that.

by Idéfix Tue May 01, 2012 1:30 am

Actually the Bangla word seems to be quite close to the Portuguese janela! According to Google Translate, "window" translates to "জানালা" which is jAnAlA. HK, do you know if that's the correct spelling or Google is screwing this one up? (They do screw up some Telugu translations).

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 1:31 am

panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:jannal (window) - from portugese janela
The Bangla word for window is jAlna. I wonder if it had anything to do with the Portuguese word.

surely you mean jAnglA? i'm pretty certain in hindi, window is also called jAnglA.
You know the language better than I do. I haven't read the word anywhere, but I spelled it the way it sounded to me... I thought they were saying jAlnA Ta bondo koro or something like that.

oops! it is jAnalA in bengali -- jAnalA khule dao. in hindi it's janglA -- sheeshey ka janglA. jangla also means web in hindi - makdi ka janglA. just did a quick google search. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n60rX6akjto

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 1:39 am

fascinating how bengali janala and portugese janela are so similiar. greater bengal does have a history of portugese settlements and influence.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 01, 2012 6:48 am

panini press wrote:
Another word that I wonder about is chAvi -- that's chAbi in Hindi and may occur in Sanskrit as well. If it doesn't occur in Sanskrit, but does in Hindi, Telugu and Tamil, that might argue for a Portuguese origin, but if it occurs in Sanskrit that may be the closer explanation.

does not appear to be the case:
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=key&trans=Translate&direction=AU

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 01, 2012 7:33 am

i've heard randhal too. i think it's just a metathesis (isn't that the technical term for this?) of lantern.

by Maria S Tue May 01, 2012 8:02 am

*To my knowledge - "Cheeni" and not Chini was the tamil term used for Sugar by Tamilians (especially people from Tirunelveli, Kanyakumari Districts..and Tamilians who migrated to Burma and Malaysia). There are different terms used based on the "size/color of the sugar crystals"- Cheeni is used for more refined granulated sugar. Brown sugar/jaggery is obviously vellam (sarkarai pongal is interestingly made from brown sugar and not cheeni), and if it's from palm sugar "panavellam" etc.

This is perhaps a close to accurate link about the road which Cheeni traveled:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6764089

"Another form of sugar is in small crystals, which in a heap appear opaque-white or porcelain-white rather than transparent salt-white. Porcelain-white sugar was called Cheeni, where Cheeni = Porcelain.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 01, 2012 9:24 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
panini press wrote:
Another word that I wonder about is chAvi -- that's chAbi in Hindi and may occur in Sanskrit as well. If it doesn't occur in Sanskrit, but does in Hindi, Telugu and Tamil, that might argue for a Portuguese origin, but if it occurs in Sanskrit that may be the closer explanation.

does not appear to be the case:
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=key&trans=Translate&direction=AU

interestingly, the word for lock has cognates in many other indian langauges of the same sanskrit word "tAl", but in tamil the word is pUttu which sounds nothing like tAl or tAlA, but it is self consistent in that the same word (pUttu) is also used in tamil to tie or bind, for example oxen to a cart.

however, i have a rather delicious bit of hypothesis. i am not sure when actual locks and keys came into usage in india, maybe indians just shut their doors and used a simple latch to secure the insides of their dwellings. in that case, the simple latch in tamil is called தாழ்ப்பாள் (thAzhppAL) and the act of closing using a latch, தாழ் போடுதல் (thAzh poduthal). i say this because the tamil "zha" in other indian languages becomes a simple "la". further strengthening that bit of speculation is that words for lock in other IE languages do not appear to have etymological roots that sound anything like tAl or tAlA, so i wonder (sorry rashmun for hypothesizing so) whether this is one of those words that actually went proto-dravidian --> sanskrit.

by Kayalvizhi Tue May 01, 2012 11:29 am

sakkarai, vellam - brown sugar lumps (ungranulated or unpowdered) from cane

karppaddi - brown, solid sugar from palm juice

cheeni - white granulated or powedered sugar

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 11:32 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
panini press wrote:
Another word that I wonder about is chAvi -- that's chAbi in Hindi and may occur in Sanskrit as well. If it doesn't occur in Sanskrit, but does in Hindi, Telugu and Tamil, that might argue for a Portuguese origin, but if it occurs in Sanskrit that may be the closer explanation.

does not appear to be the case:
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=key&trans=Translate&direction=AU

interestingly, the word for lock has cognates in many other indian langauges of the same sanskrit word "tAl", but in tamil the word is pUttu which sounds nothing like tAl or tAlA, but it is self consistent in that the same word (pUttu) is also used in tamil to tie or bind, for example oxen to a cart.

--> in malayalam, the word puttu means something completely different:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puttu

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 01, 2012 11:36 am

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
panini press wrote:
Another word that I wonder about is chAvi -- that's chAbi in Hindi and may occur in Sanskrit as well. If it doesn't occur in Sanskrit, but does in Hindi, Telugu and Tamil, that might argue for a Portuguese origin, but if it occurs in Sanskrit that may be the closer explanation.

does not appear to be the case:
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=key&trans=Translate&direction=AU

interestingly, the word for lock has cognates in many other indian langauges of the same sanskrit word "tAl", but in tamil the word is pUttu which sounds nothing like tAl or tAlA, but it is self consistent in that the same word (pUttu) is also used in tamil to tie or bind, for example oxen to a cart.

--> in malayalam, the word puttu means something completely different:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puttu

this is the danger of making silly conclusions from roman spellings and also underscores the need for consistency in representing and differentiating between long and short vowel sounds from indian languages in roman notation. the scheme i employ if followed consistently will minimize errors.

now to the subject of your post, puttu means the same thing in tamil as it does in malayALam. the word i used was pUttu.
here are the representations of those two words in tamil: puttu-- புட்டு; pUttu -- பூட்டு. see the difference?

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 11:39 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
panini press wrote:
Another word that I wonder about is chAvi -- that's chAbi in Hindi and may occur in Sanskrit as well. If it doesn't occur in Sanskrit, but does in Hindi, Telugu and Tamil, that might argue for a Portuguese origin, but if it occurs in Sanskrit that may be the closer explanation.

does not appear to be the case:
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=key&trans=Translate&direction=AU

interestingly, the word for lock has cognates in many other indian langauges of the same sanskrit word "tAl", but in tamil the word is pUttu which sounds nothing like tAl or tAlA, but it is self consistent in that the same word (pUttu) is also used in tamil to tie or bind, for example oxen to a cart.

--> in malayalam, the word puttu means something completely different:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puttu

this is the danger of making silly conclusions from roman spellings and also underscores the need for consistency in representing and differentiating between long and short vowel sounds from indian languages in roman notation. the scheme i employ if followed consistently will minimize errors.

now to the subject of your post, puttu means the same thing in tamil as it does in malayALam. the word i used was pUttu.
here are the representations of those two words in tamil: puttu-- புட்டு; pUttu -- பூட்டு. see the difference?

yes. thanks for the clarification.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 01, 2012 12:38 pm

also, i am finding that google translate is unreliable. for example i typed lock into google translate and asked for a tamil translation. it came up with this gem (குஞ்சம்--kunjam). for a minute i was flabbergasted, and then burst out laughing. that's the word for lock as in lock of hair.

eta: but you can click on the translation and it brings up a list with alternate meanings and that list indeed has pUttu and other verb forms of the word as well.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 01, 2012 12:48 pm

i have to take back what i said about google translate. it's actually very good. i just tried a few more and it was smoking. here are the words i tried to translate from english to tamil: probability, chance, dissipate (with amazingly accurate alternatives to the main suggestion), translate. wow!

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