An interesting category of Tamil Poems

by Guest Tue May 08, 2012 8:45 am

Nature of Purananuru

There are 400 poems in Purananuru including the invocation poem. Poems 267 and 268 are lost and some of the poems exist only in fragment. Of the poets who wrote these poems, there are men and women, kings and paupers. The oldest book of annotations found so far has annotations and commentary on the first 266 poems. The commentator Nachinarkiniyaar of the eleventh – twelfth century Tamil Nadu has written a complete commentatry on all the poems. A majority of poems are
praise of king (2-85)[4][5]
their generosity (315-35)[4][5]
by poets for their patrons (86-173)[4][5]
war poems (283-314)[4][5]
ethical and moral poem (182-95)[4][5]
refernces to cattle raids (257-9, 262-3)[4][5]
chief drinking toddy before raids (269)[4][5]
[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purananuru

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 08, 2012 8:58 am

the sangam era literature are broadly classified into two categories:

agam -- that which dealt with the inside; i.e. inside of a dwelling, of one's life, and of one's heart and mind. this was poetry that nearly always was concerned with man-woman relationships, romantic love, and sex.

puram -- that which dealt with the outside world. war craft, politics, and governance.

hope that helps. not sure what exactly you are looking for.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 08, 2012 9:02 am

AKR translated some of the poems from the ettuththokai and the paththuppAttu into english and the translations are very good. you might want to check them out. they are eminently readable even in translation, i.e. AKR's translation.

http://www.amazon.com/Poems-Love-War-Anthologies-Representative/dp/0231051077

by Idéfix Tue May 08, 2012 9:07 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:not sure what exactly you are looking for.

Dirt on Tamil rulers of the past. You hurt him by talking about Genghis's extracurricular activities, so he is googling for revenge.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue May 08, 2012 9:20 am

panini press wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:not sure what exactly you are looking for.
Dirt on Tamil rulers of the past. You hurt him by talking about Genghis's extracurricular activities, so he is googling for revenge.

What is hard to believe is that you guys even respond to this Cut/Vomit lover of islamic barbarians who is simply suffering from Narcissistic D/O, and does not read anything he himself vomits 6 times a day.

by Guest Tue May 08, 2012 9:46 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:AKR translated some of the poems from the ettuththokai and the paththuppAttu into english and the translations are very good. you might want to check them out. they are eminently readable even in translation, i.e. AKR's translation.

http://www.amazon.com/Poems-Love-War-Anthologies-Representative/dp/0231051077

i was specifically looking for war poems in tamil literature. i recall Ponniyin Selvan talking about it on Sulekha CH and it seemed appropriate to bring this up in the context of my recent posts on Genghis Khan. this category of tamil poems is very interesting because, with very few exceptions, there is no martial poetry in sanskrit literature.

by Guest Tue May 08, 2012 9:50 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:AKR translated some of the poems from the ettuththokai and the paththuppAttu into english and the translations are very good. you might want to check them out. they are eminently readable even in translation, i.e. AKR's translation.

http://www.amazon.com/Poems-Love-War-Anthologies-Representative/dp/0231051077

i just purchased this book from amazon. thanks.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 08, 2012 10:14 am

what you might find interesting about them is that most of them are not about monarchs, noblemen and eminent personages but about common people and soldiers.

by Guest Tue May 08, 2012 10:18 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:what you might find interesting about them is that most of them are not about monarchs, noblemen and eminent personages but about common people and soldiers.

thanks. there is some sanskrit poetry about common people as well but it is somewhat rare. on another note, would you recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Tamil-Love-Poetry-Ainkurunuru-Translations/dp/0231150652/ref=pd_sim_b_1

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 08, 2012 12:01 pm

sounds interesting. i need to spend some more time looking at it before i form a fully formed opinion, but she has the right idea. she is right when she says in the intro that AKR doesn't always deal with the messiness of clumsy translation dropping entire clauses to keep with his minimalist aesthetic and to convey the spirit of the poem. his own translations are strikingly good poetry in english i have seen this myself, though to give you a specific example, i'll have dig up the book and compare it with the original. i also have an excellent tamil commentary by silamboli chellappan on portions of the sangam poetry. i'll post more in the next few weeks after i've had a chance to dig through her book. maybe i'll even order it from amazon.

by Idéfix Tue May 08, 2012 12:02 pm

Rashmun wrote:with very few exceptions, there is no martial poetry in sanskrit literature.

I presume a major chunk of the Mahabharata, and substantial portions of the Ramayana, are among those "few exceptions."

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 08, 2012 12:10 pm

haha. i like how she respectfully but firmly dismisses jotimuttu's translation with his quaint and outdated (in english) usages of "lads" and "lassies". LOL - inducing. i am sure indigenous translators will get indigestion as is nearly always the case (and understandable) when they see western translators dig into our texts.

eta: i like her first example from the ainkurunURu (iLavenir pAttu) and her translation. i read through it and i want to savor more of her translation. she accurately conveys the swelling eroticism of the original. it literally leaps off the pages. good stuff.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 08, 2012 12:29 pm

that was iLavenir pattu, not pAttu. pattu= ten, pAttu = song.

iLavenir pattu = the spring ten (i suppose the ten poems about spring). the transliteration scheme threw me off.

by Nila Tue May 08, 2012 2:09 pm

Rashmun wrote:Nature of Purananuru

There are 400 poems in Purananuru including the invocation poem. Poems 267 and 268 are lost and some of the poems exist only in fragment. Of the poets who wrote these poems, there are men and women, kings and paupers. The oldest book of annotations found so far has annotations and commentary on the first 266 poems. The commentator Nachinarkiniyaar of the eleventh – twelfth century Tamil Nadu has written a complete commentatry on all the poems. A majority of poems are
praise of king (2-85)[4][5]
their generosity (315-35)[4][5]
by poets for their patrons (86-173)[4][5]
war poems (283-314)[4][5]
ethical and moral poem (182-95)[4][5]
refernces to cattle raids (257-9, 262-3)[4][5]
chief drinking toddy before raids (269)[4][5]
[edit]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purananuru

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purananuru[/quote[/url]]

Akananuru is much more fun than purananuru.

But since now I am in 30s I would wait till 50s to read it, anyway. Hope all the 50 somethings might like it.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 08, 2012 2:13 pm

*undignified language alert*

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed May 09, 2012 10:05 am

rashmun: i want to sincerely thank you for bringing this little book to my attention. i think it is beautifully done. the translations make for wonderful reading conveying both the literal meanings of the poems while also transmitting their emotional core faithfully. i find that this is one of the hardest things to do in translating any great work from one language to another. a long time ago i had ambitions of translating kalki's ponniyin selvan into english and i gave up. lack of time was an issue, but the more important reason was that i couldn't handle the twin requirements of producing an accurate literal translation while also retaining all the little cultural and artistic nuances in the text which make for a great novel. this is hard enough to do in prose, but poetry is a couple of orders of magnitude harder. martha selby's achievement here is no mean feat. she is indeed a fine sangam scholar and a wonderful poet herself. goes without saying that i recommend it enthusiastically and will be getting a copy myself.

eta: your post motivated me enough to go to a nearby university bookstore and look for it. i found it and read more of it. i think the online price is better.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed May 09, 2012 10:21 am

i can't edit the post above, but wanted to add this in postscript. i think it's a bit of an injustice to call her book a mere translation. she has done something much more valuable. in addition to all that i said earlier, she has also written a clear commentary on the poems which locates it correctly in time and space which are two central concepts to ancient tamils. e.g. the passage of seasons from spring to summer and the contrast of landscapes. there is a lot more to be said about these ideas of time and space beyond selby's book. maybe i'll continue it in a different thread later.

by Guest Wed May 09, 2012 7:36 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun: i want to sincerely thank you for bringing this little book to my attention. i think it is beautifully done. the translations make for wonderful reading conveying both the literal meanings of the poems while also transmitting their emotional core faithfully. i find that this is one of the hardest things to do in translating any great work from one language to another. a long time ago i had ambitions of translating kalki's ponniyin selvan into english and i gave up. lack of time was an issue, but the more important reason was that i couldn't handle the twin requirements of producing an accurate literal translation while also retaining all the little cultural and artistic nuances in the text which make for a great novel. this is hard enough to do in prose, but poetry is a couple of orders of magnitude harder. martha selby's achievement here is no mean feat. she is indeed a fine sangam scholar and a wonderful poet herself. goes without saying that i recommend it enthusiastically and will be getting a copy myself.

eta: your post motivated me enough to go to a nearby university bookstore and look for it. i found it and read more of it. i think the online price is better.

i am glad you enjoyed this book. i will purchase the kindle edition when i feel like reading some poetry. Meanwhile, you may also enjoy reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Anthology-Sanskrit-Court-Poetry-Subhasitaratnakosa/dp/0674039505/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1336605253&sr=8-2-fkmr0

it is an english translation of the most famous anthology of sanskrit poetry: Vidyakara's Subhasitaratnakosa.

the sanskrit text edited by Kosambi and Gokhale together with a commentary by Kosambi is in a separate volume of the Harvard Oriental Series:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Subhasitaratnakosa-Harvard-Oriental-Series/dp/B0000CK1O9/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1336605653&sr=8-5

the translator (Ingalls, a very famous sanskrit Professor at Harvard) won his fame based on his stunningly beautiful translation of the original sanskrit verses. Incidentally, both the editor (Kosambi) and translator of the Subhasitaratnakosa comment in their introductions to the text about the paucity of war poems in sanskrit literature. (As per my recollection, there is not a single war poem in this collection of sanskrit verses which is regarded the most famous anthology of sanskrit poetry). There is a section in the anthology where the poems are about the lives of the common people and both the editor and translator comment on the fact that this kind of poetry is rare in sanskrit literature.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed May 09, 2012 8:52 pm

thanks. i am going to make a bit of effort this summer to teach myself a little sanskrit. let's see how it goes.

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