amir.khan - question.to northies

by truthbetold Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:20 pm

Amir khan show uses what i perceive to be very shudh hindi. Am i right? Is this a dialect? Or is it just the written or parliamentarian language? Is it used by well read people or some regional brahmins? I heard this language only ace bengali film directors movies like basu chatterjee or hrishida.
I like that amir khan does not use that half hindi/urdu and half english that most filmi people use. His words were simple and well delivered.

by Guest Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:25 pm

TBT, it is not shudha hindi. it is hindustani or hindi-urdu. There is a generous amount of persian origin words in his hindi which u would not find in shudha hindi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1vASMbEEQc

by truthbetold Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:32 pm

Paristithi prayatnam etc are not commonly heard filmi hindi.

by Guest Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:37 pm

truthbetold wrote:Paristithi prayatnam etc are not commonly heard filmi hindi.

give the link to the youtube video where you heard the phrase 'paristhiti prayatnam' together with the time on the video in which this phrase occurs. he uses the words 'mazhab' (religion), 'jannat' (heaven), 'ahamiyat' (importance), 'jasbaat' (emotions), 'aulaad' (child), 'khudgarzi' (selfishness) in the following video (see from 4:35 onwards) which are all persian origin words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1vASMbEEQc

by Guest Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:57 pm

truthbetold wrote:Paristithi prayatnam etc are not commonly heard filmi hindi.

on another note, the dialogues and songs in hindi films are typically in hindustani or hindi-urdu, and not in shuddha hindi. u will find words like jasbaat (emotions), toofan(storm), aashiq (lover), ishq (love), aulaad (child) etc. in hindi films but these words are of persian origin and are eschewed in shudha hindi.

by truthbetold Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:08 pm

I thought hindi movie lyrics are urdu . Most of the lyricists were from punjab.

I am not surprised at persian influence and words in hindi. That relationship extends beyond 2000 years. I read some place that sura and asura were found in persianor its ancestors but exactly opposite.
amirs usage of words of persian origin still did not give me the feeling of a distant language. I felt his language belonged to india.
I am not an expert on hindi to comment about persian word content but your characterization of his language is hindustani. Ok. Is that kind of hindustani limited to tv shows or is it spoken in some parts of india or economic sections of india?

by Guest Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:23 pm

truthbetold wrote:I thought hindi movie lyrics are urdu . Most of the lyricists were from punjab.

I am not surprised at persian influence and words in hindi. That relationship extends beyond 2000 years. I read some place that sura and asura were found in persianor its ancestors but exactly opposite.
amirs usage of words of persian origin still did not give me the feeling of a distant language. I felt his language belonged to india.
I am not an expert on hindi to comment about persian word content but your characterization of his language is hindustani. Ok. Is that kind of hindustani limited to tv shows or is it spoken in some parts of india or economic sections of india?

his language is hindustani or hindi-urdu. hindustani is the language spoken and/or understood by most people all across urban India. Aamir (not Amir) Khan's hindustani has more persian words than would normally be used by most people in conversational hindustani. I found it similar to the Hindustani used in Hindi film dialogues and songs. A word like 'aulaad' (child or children) is of persian origin and more formal, while in casual Hindustani 'bacche' (or 'baccha') which is more informal would be used. The shudha hindi equivalent would be 'santaan'.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:41 am

so shuddha hindi is just ashuddha sanskrit? i find it funny to use words like shuddha to describe a (fairly recent) language that is a bastard child of a sanskritic mother and a persian father.

by Guest Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:47 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:so shuddha hindi is just ashuddha sanskrit? i find it funny to use words like shuddha to describe a (fairly recent) language that is a bastard child of a sanskritic mother and a persian father.

in shudha hindi a deliberate effort is made to purge hindi of all words (even commonly used words) of persian origin and replacing them with words of sanskrit origin. For instance, 'Bharti Daftar' or 'Rozgar Daftar' (meaning selection center) would be Hindustani while 'pravaran kendra' would be shudha hindi. 'Bail' would be zamaanat in Hindustani (a commonly used word both by the common man and also used in hindi movies) but in shudha hindi the word would be pratibhu. this is similar to tamil fanatics trying to replace commonly used tamil words of sanskrit origin with esoteric words of tamil origin in tamil. just like tamil fanatics we also have hindi fanatics. personally i despise this kind of language fanaticism. in an earlier post i had written:

"in my opinion, the practice of eschewing commonly used words of sanskrit origin and replacing them with esoteric words of tamil origin in literary tamil will make literary tamil divorced from the understanding and usage of the language by the common man. the language will become more and more elitist."

my words apply to shudha hindi as well.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:32 am

Rashmun wrote:
"in my opinion, the practice of eschewing commonly used words of sanskrit origin and replacing them with esoteric words of tamil origin in literary tamil will make literary tamil divorced from the understanding and usage of the language by the common man. the language will become more and more elitist."

replacing all "sanskritic" words in tamil by the fanatics may be a fools errand since the last word on exchanges of vocabulary between proto dravidian and dravidian languages and sanskrit has not been written yet. so today what is firmly considered to be sanskrit may indeed be found to have a dravidian origin in future. to that extent i agree with you.

i posted this question in a linguistics forum and there was general agreement with my suggestion that one way to make progress in this area is the following approach. take any word whose origins are (etymologically) disputed and look exhaustively for cognates in all other dead and alive indo-european languages. if none can be found, then that word is probably of dravidian origin.

here is an example, the hindi word tAlA for lock. this word seems to be present in all indian languages including some dravidian languages (but not tamil). now no indo european language outside the sub continent seems to have this word (i did search). it is initially puzzling since the tamil word for lock is pUttu and it sounds nothing like tAlA. however, i came to a delightful little discovery that there is a commonplace tamil word, தாழ்ப்பாள் (thAzhppAL), which means a latch. i have a very very strong hunch that this is cognate with tAlA. so the act of latching in tamil is cognate with the act of securing the premises in other indian languages. but the actual physical object, the lock, is referred to using a different word in tamil. thus it is my tentative conclusion that the word tAlA is of dravidian origin.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:47 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:here is an example, the hindi word tAlA for lock. this word seems to be present in all indian languages including some dravidian languages (but not tamil). now no indo european language outside the sub continent seems to have this word (i did search). it is initially puzzling since the tamil word for lock is pUttu and it sounds nothing like tAlA. however, i came to a delightful little discovery that there is a commonplace tamil word, தாழ்ப்பாள் (thAzhppAL), which means a latch. i have a very very strong hunch that this is cognate with tAlA. so the act of latching in tamil is cognate with the act of securing the premises in other indian languages. but the actual physical object, the lock, is referred to using a different word in tamil. thus it is my tentative conclusion that the word tAlA is of dravidian origin.

a malayaLam word for lock is thAzh(eh).

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:53 am

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:a malayaLam word for lock is thAzh(eh).

bingo! and that's the missing link. malayALam was the penultimate language to split from the mainline protodravidian and is the only other language that retains the "zha" consonant besides tamil. the "zha" which i understand was present in protodravidian disappeared in the dravidian languages with the exception of tamil and malayALam. my tentative thesis is further bolstered by the fact that there is a word in malayALam that means lock (the object, the noun) and has the "zha" sound. so it is likely that as the word migrated from protodravidian into other dravidian languages and other non-dravidian indian languages it did so with the "zha" transforming into a simple "la".

by Guest Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:03 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:here is an example, the hindi word tAlA for lock. this word seems to be present in all indian languages including some dravidian languages (but not tamil). now no indo european language outside the sub continent seems to have this word (i did search). it is initially puzzling since the tamil word for lock is pUttu and it sounds nothing like tAlA. however, i came to a delightful little discovery that there is a commonplace tamil word, தாழ்ப்பாள் (thAzhppAL), which means a latch. i have a very very strong hunch that this is cognate with tAlA. so the act of latching in tamil is cognate with the act of securing the premises in other indian languages. but the actual physical object, the lock, is referred to using a different word in tamil. thus it is my tentative conclusion that the word tAlA is of dravidian origin.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bingo! and that's the missing link. malayALam was the penultimate language to split from the mainline protodravidian and is the only other language that retains the "zha" consonant besides tamil. the "zha" which i understand was present in protodravidian disappeared in the dravidian languages with the exception of tamil and malayALam. my tentative thesis is further bolstered by the fact that there is a word in malayALam that means lock (the object, the noun) and has the "zha" sound. so it is likely that as the word migrated from protodravidian into other dravidian languages and other non-dravidian indian languages it did so with the "zha" transforming into a simple "la".

very nice. even i am pleasantly amused. are there similar sounding words in dravidian languages for (let's take two random non persian origin, non sanskrit origin words as a trial):

kivAD -- door
fAtak -- gate (big gate in the courtyard or main gate of the house)

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:24 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:very nice. even i am pleasantly amused.

"amused" is sufficient. there's hardly a case in which one is unpleasantly amused.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:46 am

by the way there is a reason why i said missing link in case it wasn't obvious. malayALam retains the tamil pronunciation of the word in question, but the meaning of the word in malayALam is the same as that in other indian languages. sort of a bridge.

some more idle speculation from me -- i am not sure when actual locks with a key not integral to a door came into usage in india. but whenever it did, it probably came from the portugese (think of the word for key in many indian languages chAvi; it came from the portugese chAve). prior to the advent of the lock and key, indians probably simply latched their doors to secure their premises. back then the word tAlA probably simply meant the latch as does its cognate thAzhppAL in tamil. enter the lock and key, and most indians transferred the word tAlA on to this new method of securing doors and such. the tamilians preferring to utilize the word to refer to its original meaning went to a different source, namely the idea of binding (pUttu; as in binding oxen to carts), to create a word for the lock. note that the tamil word for key is the same as all other indian languages, chAvi. this is a likely scenario.

by Guest Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:53 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:back then the word tAlA probably simply meant the latch as does its cognate thAzhppAL in tamil. enter the lock and key, and most indians transferred the word tAlA on to this new method of securing doors and such.

tAlA is also a verb in hindi, where it still means "to latch" or "to secure" and not necessarily with a tAlA (noun).

by Guest Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:55 am

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:very nice. even i am pleasantly amused.
"amused" is sufficient. there's hardly a case in which one is unpleasantly amused.

you are wrong and "ironical." eWWeRRyDDaY you are finding "perverse" amusement here (and in that ABCD teens/pre-teens site that you stalk).

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:57 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:back then the word tAlA probably simply meant the latch as does its cognate thAzhppAL in tamil. enter the lock and key, and most indians transferred the word tAlA on to this new method of securing doors and such.
tAla is alsio a verb in hindi, where it still means "to latch" or "to secure" and not necessarily with a tAlA (noun).

thank you. do you know the word in hindi for the noun, latch?

by Guest Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:00 am

paging tw. let me ask my wife in the meantime. later.

edit. "chitkani" off the top of my head. but there must be better words.

by Guest Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:20 am

amir.khan - question.to northies Latch%20Wood%20-%20Close%20Up

^ khooNTI (the first latch)

amir.khan - question.to northies Diamond-door-latch-250x250

^ sANkal

amir.khan - question.to northies 15Chain_Door_Lock_(Brass)

^ kuNdI (or chitkanI)

amir.khan - question.to northies Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShyoz73-LobkRDFxY9KledVSWrblris0vqiBXLrV6KjIqot0YONQ

^ chitkanI

by Guest Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:39 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

^ khooNTI (the first latch)

or kuNdI. khooNTI is ambiguous.

by Guest Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:09 pm

khoonti i think is a hook up on the wall for hanging stuff.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:48 pm

the tamil word for all these variants with the exception of the chain thing is thAzhppAL (colloquial--thAppA; in the colloquial the zha is completely swallowed). i don't know if there is a tamil word for the chain thing.

by artood2 Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:53 pm

truthbetold wrote:I thought hindi movie lyrics are urdu . Most of the lyricists were from punjab.

I am not surprised at persian influence and words in hindi. That relationship extends beyond 2000 years. I read some place that sura and asura were found in persianor its ancestors but exactly opposite.
amirs usage of words of persian origin still did not give me the feeling of a distant language. I felt his language belonged to india.
I am not an expert on hindi to comment about persian word content but your characterization of his language is hindustani. Ok. Is that kind of hindustani limited to tv shows or is it spoken in some parts of india or economic sections of india?

Hindi (as in Khari boli) was originally spoken in and around Delhi. The other more prominent dialects of hindi were Braj, Awadhi and Dingal. What is now called Hindi, is fairly young (~200 years or less) old. Urdu or hindustani evolved during 12-16th century AD in UP and due to physical proximity current day Hindi borrowed a lot of words from Urdu. However this borrowing is similar to what Hindi borrowed from other languages and does not make Hindi and Urdu the same. Most hindi speaking natives cannot make sense of a lot of Urdu words. Bollywood as been populated witha lot of Urdu writers (song/dialogues) and hence the plethora of Urdu words. The usage of Urdu words is similar to that of English words (like aspatal, computer, rail etc ) albeit at a slightly bigger scale due to the physical proximity. Someone who learns Hindi from NCERT textbooks is unlikely to understand a lot of those Urdu words.

by truthbetold Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:24 pm

The currently spoken and written versions of most languages have evolved in the past 100 to 400 years. Industrial revolution and mass communications have a lot to do with that. What is the lhe language of tulsi ramayan? What was the language of gwalior rulers? What was the language of samudra gupta of sixth century. Sanskrit was never a mass language. There must one or more non sanskrit non urdu non persian lsnguages. What were those?what are the successors to those languages? Isn't hindi one of those successor language?
Urdu was a mix of turkish persian hindi languages. Well spoken urdu is very lyrical.
Compared to other indian languages urdu was unique because it was untouched by caste system.

by Guest Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:19 am

artood2 wrote:Hindi (as in Khari boli) was originally spoken in and around Delhi. The other more prominent dialects of hindi were Braj, Awadhi and Dingal. What is now called Hindi, is fairly young (~200 years or less) old. Urdu or hindustani evolved during 12-16th century AD in UP and due to physical proximity current day Hindi borrowed a lot of words from Urdu

rekhta

by Idéfix Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:49 am

truthbetold wrote:Sanskrit was never a mass language.

I just finished reading a book that argues that Sanskrit was actually derived from Magadhi Prakrit, the language spoken around ancient Bihar in the times when the Buddha and Ashoka lived. I am still not sure whether to believe that notion, because the vedas predate that by quite a bit, but it was an interesting notion nevertheless.

by Propagandhi711 Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:59 am

Language topic - killing buzz since 2001 ( along with thaka dini thom discussion)

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:02 am

Propagandhi711 wrote:Language topic - killing buzz since 2001

do you mean indian language politics, or do you also include anything to do with languages per se, their evolution and relationships to each other, and their relationship to human migration patterns?

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:06 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:Language topic - killing buzz since 2001

do you mean indian language politics, or do you also include anything to do with languages per se, their evolution and relationships to each other, and their relationship to human migration patterns?

He is probably referring to how some people make too much of a mere medium of communication, making it seem like an end in itself rather than just a means to an end.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:14 am

languages are repositories of the human experience. to call them a mere medium of communication is missing the point by a wide margin. there is even evidence that languages shape the way we think (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.html?pagewanted=all). they are certainly not just mere mediums of communication.

i do agree that indian language politics is boring; but once you scrub away all the pointless political stuff there is much that is fascinating about indian languages. definitely a post retirement activity for me.

by Guest Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:16 am

panini press wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Sanskrit was never a mass language.
I just finished reading a book that argues that Sanskrit was actually derived from Magadhi Prakrit, the language spoken around ancient Bihar in the times when the Buddha and Ashoka lived. I am still not sure whether to believe that notion, because the vedas predate that by quite a bit, but it was an interesting notion nevertheless.

which book? pehaps what he/she meant was that "classical" sanskrit was derived from or influenced by contemporaneous prakrits. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit#Classical_Sanskrit

also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadhi_Prakrit

The Indo-Aryan languages are commonly assigned to three major groups - Old, Middle and New Indo-Aryan -, a linguistic and not strictly chronological classification as the MIA languages ar not younger than ('Classical') Sanskrit. And a number of their morphophonological and lexical features betray the fact that they are not direct continuations of Ṛgvedic Sanskrit, the main base of 'Classical' Sanskrit; rather they descend from dialects which, despite many similarities, were different from Ṛgvedic and in some regards even more archaic.

by Idéfix Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:49 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Sanskrit was never a mass language.
I just finished reading a book that argues that Sanskrit was actually derived from Magadhi Prakrit, the language spoken around ancient Bihar in the times when the Buddha and Ashoka lived. I am still not sure whether to believe that notion, because the vedas predate that by quite a bit, but it was an interesting notion nevertheless.
which book? pehaps what he/she meant was that "classical" sanskrit was derived from or influenced by contemporaneous prakrits.

Correct, I took it to mean "classical" Sanskrit as well. I will mention the name of the book in a couple of days... not trying to be coy, but the trivia set I am about to post has questions inspired by the book, hence the delay.

PS: I am sure you will enjoy the book thoroughly. It tells -- among other things -- the fascinating story of how the Kharosthi and Brahmi scripts were deciphered in the 19th century.

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