Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
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MaxEntropy_Man
MulaiAzhagi
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Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
For second-generation NRIs, flashing caste becomes a part of their cultural street cred with other communities. Some do it intentionally to elevate their identity while others operate from a misunderstanding of their own roots and blindly accept the symbols of their culture. Punjabi rappers throw down lyrics about being proud Jats. Tam- Brahms show off their sacred thread, recreate Thiruvayur in Cleveland, and learn Bharatanatyam while using their powerful networks to connect and succeed in the diaspora. Ultimately, we trade and calcify what is seen as proper Indian culture. But hidden within that idea of ‘proper’ lies the code for what is aspirational and ultimately upper caste.
http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?281938
http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?281938
MulaiAzhagi- Posts : 1254
Join date : 2011-12-20
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
where is thiruvayur?
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
where is thiruvayur?
===> Aap ka point kya hai?
Thiruvayur is in TN.
..the author of the article who is a dalit complains that the Tamil Brahmins in America "recreate Thiruvayur in Cleveland.." and it is an act of flashing their caste credentials.
===> Aap ka point kya hai?
Thiruvayur is in TN.
..the author of the article who is a dalit complains that the Tamil Brahmins in America "recreate Thiruvayur in Cleveland.." and it is an act of flashing their caste credentials.
MulaiAzhagi- Posts : 1254
Join date : 2011-12-20
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
MulaiAzhagi wrote:For second-generation NRIs, flashing caste becomes a part of their cultural street cred with other communities. Some do it intentionally to elevate their identity while others operate from a misunderstanding of their own roots and blindly accept the symbols of their culture. Punjabi rappers throw down lyrics about being proud Jats. Tam- Brahms show off their sacred thread, recreate Thiruvayur in Cleveland, and learn Bharatanatyam while using their powerful networks to connect and succeed in the diaspora. Ultimately, we trade and calcify what is seen as proper Indian culture. But hidden within that idea of ‘proper’ lies the code for what is aspirational and ultimately upper caste.
http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?281938
I agree.. the Indian Govt should declare, and perhaps, constitutionally amend, that its caste and quota laws are applicable to any and all Indians, and their descendants in eternity while dealing in social/cultural/professional matters.
Marathadi-Saamiyaar- Posts : 17675
Join date : 2011-04-30
Age : 110
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
MulaiAzhagi wrote:where is thiruvayur?
===> Aap ka point kya hai?
Thiruvayur is in TN.
..the author of the article who is a dalit complains that the Tamil Brahmins in America "recreate Thiruvayur in Cleveland.." and it is an act of flashing their caste credentials.
I thought Tyagaraja lived in Thiruvayur, and Muttuswamy Dikshitar did too. Is it not the place where they do this "aradhana" every year?
indophile- Posts : 4338
Join date : 2011-04-29
Location : Glenn Dale, MD
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
Thank you Sara.
It's an interesting read.
*It's not just caste, it's also class-Upper Caste(s) + Upper Class in India, and *esp. in the US and how the divisions-disparties are growing are something to see!
It's an interesting read.
*It's not just caste, it's also class-Upper Caste(s) + Upper Class in India, and *esp. in the US and how the divisions-disparties are growing are something to see!
Maria S- Posts : 2879
Join date : 2011-12-31
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
MulaiAzhagi wrote:where is thiruvayur?
===> Aap ka point kya hai?
Thiruvayur is in TN.
..the author of the article who is a dalit complains that the Tamil Brahmins in America "recreate Thiruvayur in Cleveland.." and it is an act of flashing their caste credentials.
i don't know where thiruvayur in TN is. i don't think there is such a place as thiruvayur in TN. perhaps she is referring to thiruvayyaru the place where saint thyagaraja lived and died. i have attended on a couple of occasions the said thyagaraja festival in cleveland. it is a carnatic music festival and yes there are a lot of tamil brahmins who participate as performers and audience. so what's the problem again?
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
Here it is:
http://cvpram.blogspot.com/2007/03/visit-to-thiruvayur.html
I learn something new every day too.
Maria S- Posts : 2879
Join date : 2011-12-31
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
till she was 7, daughter thought that we are muslims, coz SRK is a muslim and and an Indian, and we are Indians too, so by that logic all Indians must be muslims.
She of course knows more now, but only on an FYI basis. If she ever learns more, it will either be coming from distant relatives, or who knows, other friends.
She of course knows more now, but only on an FYI basis. If she ever learns more, it will either be coming from distant relatives, or who knows, other friends.
Guest- Guest
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
if she wants to have a discussion about the historical sidelining of non brahmins in the CM field, that's a legitimate discussion. in fact i have written about it myself at various points here (as in here and sulekha). that is a complex narrative that involves not just caste but also intertwined with it, language. but this specific charge about NRI tambrahms seems odd.
Last edited by MaxEntropy_Man on Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
Maria S wrote:
Here it is:
http://cvpram.blogspot.com/2007/03/visit-to-thiruvayur.html
I learn something new every day too.
the name of the place is thiruvvaiyaru (திருவையாறு), the place where five rivers meet, not thiruvayur. and it's a touch surprising that you say that you found this out today. it's a place where there is an annual festival to celebrate the life and compositions of saint thyagaraja. it has been broadcast on radio and television in TN for donkey's years. in fact during the music season it is difficult to escape it.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
*I did not know about this place, can't verify or validate it..no matter how many donkeys or people who are many donkey years old want to pick a fight with me about it !
The blogger in this link mentioned "Thiruvayur"..don't think he is lying about it (may be Thiruvaiyaru has many names), so I posted it, that's all..
I'll defer to you Max- your expertise on this one.
Maria S- Posts : 2879
Join date : 2011-12-31
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
MulaiAzhagi wrote:where is thiruvayur?
===> Aap ka point kya hai?
Thiruvayur is in TN.
..the author of the article who is a dalit complains that the Tamil Brahmins in America "recreate Thiruvayur in Cleveland.." and it is an act of flashing their caste credentials.
ThamizhanE:
it is ThiruvayAARU... about 9 miles from ThanjaVUR - one of my ancestral place (my grandmother came from there).
I dont think these dance/music classes are restricted to any specific castes. It is just that the Tam-Brahms show more interest due to nostalgiaa AND to keep with their tradition.
Just like the non-Brahmins want to continue whining about being ignored by the uppercaste, and the fantasy of marrying Brahmin women and win the trophy.
Actually, the non-Brahmins should jimbly change their last names to Iyer/Iyengar; Amithagujambaal, Kamakshi (note the s and h in spelling), and marry whities. That will put us far aheaad of the Tam-Brahms in Caste race.
Marathadi-Saamiyaar- Posts : 17675
Join date : 2011-04-30
Age : 110
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
One more link:
Famous Bharatanatyam Dancers- Rukmini Devi
"Born in a Brahmin family in Madurai on 28thFebruary 1904. She came from a village called Thiruvayur with rich association of saint Tyagaraja. Her background was full of culture and learning. She got married to Dr. George Arundale in 1920 who was an educationist."
http://www.bhavalaya.com/art%20and%20culture/famous_bharatanatyam_dancers.html
Famous Bharatanatyam Dancers- Rukmini Devi
"Born in a Brahmin family in Madurai on 28thFebruary 1904. She came from a village called Thiruvayur with rich association of saint Tyagaraja. Her background was full of culture and learning. She got married to Dr. George Arundale in 1920 who was an educationist."
http://www.bhavalaya.com/art%20and%20culture/famous_bharatanatyam_dancers.html
Maria S- Posts : 2879
Join date : 2011-12-31
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
it also happens to be my native place. thiruvayur is a misspelling. thiruvaiyyaru (thiru + ai + ARu, the confluence of five holy rivers). it totally changes the meaning if spelled as thiruvayur (holy mouth place? to my knowledge there is no such place). i suppose if you google, it will find all the misspelled instances. that someone misspells the name doesn't make it right.
uppili--it's a bit flip to minimize the sidelining of non-brahmins like dandapANi desigar in CM by tambrahms. i'm not in the mood right now to get into (totally consumed by american politics) it right now. maybe another time.
uppili--it's a bit flip to minimize the sidelining of non-brahmins like dandapANi desigar in CM by tambrahms. i'm not in the mood right now to get into (totally consumed by american politics) it right now. maybe another time.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
Dalits and other backward castes want to hang on to their castes in order to get reservations and other goodies, but get all twisted when others identify themselves with their own castes. What hypocrisy!
Guest- Guest
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
we have walked down this road before.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:we have walked down this road before.
Oh, wow. Thanks for that sulekha Malarum Ninaivugal.
Guest- Guest
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
===> Talking about non-brahmins and carnatic music reminds me of my neighbor when I was about 11 years old.
They rented the big house and owned a textile printing shop. One day a relative of theirs moved in. He was in his fifties and he was a singer. He was there for a while. The family arranged to have some kind of platform or stage in the middle of the street with a lot of flourescent lights. And the man was singing classical music. The whole street enjoyed it. It went on for hours well into the middle of the night. Sometimes I feel India ia a much more free country than America.
They rented the big house and owned a textile printing shop. One day a relative of theirs moved in. He was in his fifties and he was a singer. He was there for a while. The family arranged to have some kind of platform or stage in the middle of the street with a lot of flourescent lights. And the man was singing classical music. The whole street enjoyed it. It went on for hours well into the middle of the night. Sometimes I feel India ia a much more free country than America.
MulaiAzhagi- Posts : 1254
Join date : 2011-12-20
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
Google maps and maps of india list thiruvaiyur. I like thiruvaiyyuru. That sounds like telugu.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
truthbetold wrote: I like thiruvaiyyuru. That sounds like telugu.
thiruvaiyyAru not thiruvaiyyuru.
thiru (holy) + ai (five) + ARu (river). confluence of five holy rivers.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
Ok. That makes more sense.MaxEntropy_Man wrote:truthbetold wrote: I like thiruvaiyyuru. That sounds like telugu.
thiruvaiyyAru not thiruvaiyyuru.
thiru (holy) + ai (five) + ARu (river). confluence of five holy rivers.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it also happens to be my native place. thiruvayur is a misspelling. thiruvaiyyaru (thiru + ai + ARu, the confluence of five holy rivers). it totally changes the meaning if spelled as thiruvayur (holy mouth place? to my knowledge there is no such place). i suppose if you google, it will find all the misspelled instances. that someone misspells the name doesn't make it right.
uppili--it's a bit flip to minimize the sidelining of non-brahmins like dandapANi desigar in CM by tambrahms. i'm not in the mood right now to get into (totally consumed by american politics) it right now. maybe another time.
One ASSUMED that only singers are Carnautic musicians. They are forgetting the greta Nadaswara Vidwans - who were almost exclusively non-Brahmins and even Muslims. MS Subbulakshmi was NOT a Brahmin and so was Madurai Somasundaram.
Marathadi-Saamiyaar- Posts : 17675
Join date : 2011-04-30
Age : 110
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it also happens to be my native place. thiruvayur is a misspelling. thiruvaiyyaru (thiru + ai + ARu, the confluence of five holy rivers). it totally changes the meaning if spelled as thiruvayur (holy mouth place? to my knowledge there is no such place). i suppose if you google, it will find all the misspelled instances. that someone misspells the name doesn't make it right.
uppili--it's a bit flip to minimize the sidelining of non-brahmins like dandapANi desigar in CM by tambrahms. i'm not in the mood right now to get into (totally consumed by american politics) it right now. maybe another time.
One ASSUMED that only singers are Carnautic musicians. They are forgetting the greta Nadaswara Vidwans - who were almost exclusively non-Brahmins and even Muslims. MS Subbulakshmi was NOT a Brahmin and so was Madurai Somasundaram.
all covered here saamiyar. you're a bit late to the party.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Caste and the Cleveland Carnatic Music Festival
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it also happens to be my native place. thiruvayur is a misspelling. thiruvaiyyaru (thiru + ai + ARu, the confluence of five holy rivers). it totally changes the meaning if spelled as thiruvayur (holy mouth place? to my knowledge there is no such place). i suppose if you google, it will find all the misspelled instances. that someone misspells the name doesn't make it right.
uppili--it's a bit flip to minimize the sidelining of non-brahmins like dandapANi desigar in CM by tambrahms. i'm not in the mood right now to get into (totally consumed by american politics) it right now. maybe another time.
One ASSUMED that only singers are Carnautic musicians. They are forgetting the greta Nadaswara Vidwans - who were almost exclusively non-Brahmins and even Muslims. MS Subbulakshmi was NOT a Brahmin and so was Madurai Somasundaram.
all covered here saamiyar. you're a bit late to the party.
Nope I was there too... Just proves that all our views and opinions are set in concrete and will last forever.
** I am right and only I am right**
Marathadi-Saamiyaar- Posts : 17675
Join date : 2011-04-30
Age : 110
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