swamy - Hindu temples to Hindus

by truthbetold Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:33 pm

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/freeing-temples-from-state-control/article5594132.ece?homepage=true

I support most aspects of subramanya swamy 's opinion. of course we cannot accept a move from govt to a rss control of temples but a Hindu devotee management is required.

the following minimum standards must be followed
1. respect for devotees
2. good management,
3. no archaic behaviour such as untouchability and
4. selection of priests by merit and knowledge instead of caste and family
i do not see any reason why secular intellectuals should oppose it. Heck even pseudo secular like merlot drinkers and professors should be able to support this.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:12 pm

worship in local languages if requested. temples in TN have been offering this for many years.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:16 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:worship in local languages if requested. temples in TN have been offering this for many years.

In the famous Nataraja Temple at Chidambaram the prayers are offered strictly in sanskrit by the Dikshitar brahmins. Dikshitars say that it is their tradition not to offer prayers in Tamil at this temple.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:22 pm

sanskrit and tamil have lived side by side and as equals forever in TN temples. the DK heads and folks like rashmun are equally responsible for fanning linguistic divisions and fanaticism where none should exist.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:37 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:sanskrit and tamil have lived side by side and as equals forever in TN temples. the DK heads and folks like rashmun are equally responsible for fanning linguistic divisions and fanaticism where none should exist.

so people like Rashmun and DK heads are to be blamed for why the prayers in Nataraja temple are only in Sanskrit as per the insistence of the Dikshitar brahmins who are the officiating priests in this temple? Great logic.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:41 pm

CHIDAMBARAM (TAMIL NADU): Tension prevailed inside the famous 'Nataraja' temple on Sunday after priests tried to prevent a man from rendering Tamil devotional hymns "dhevaram" inside the sanctum sanctorum, police said.

Unruly scenes were witnessed by the devotees after Arumuga Swamy, who had been trying to sing "dhevaram" inside the sanctum sanctorum for the past several years, reached the temple armed with an order by a court-appointed official permitting him to sing there.

About 50 'deekshitars' (temple priests), who own the temple, blocked Swamy reiterating their stance that he could not enter the sanctum sanctorum but could recite it outside, police said.

However, Swamy entered the sanctum sanctorum with the assistance of a police team led by District Superintendent of Police (DSP) Pradeep Kumar.

In the ensuing scuffle, the priests tried to pull out Swamy from the sacred spot.

The police forcefully evicted the priests and Swamy was allowed to render the hymn penned by saint poets -Appar, Thirunavakkarasar, Sundarar and Manickavasagar - praising Lord Shiva.

Swamy had filed a case in Madras High Court seeking permission to sing inside the sanctum sanctorum. Admitting his petition, the court had asked Secretary of Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Trust to look into the matter.

The Trust's secretary Santhanam had issued an order last week stating that Swamy could sing inside the sanctum sanctorum without causing disturbance to devotees.

Swamy had contended that "dhevaram" was sung inside sanctum sanctorum of the temple some 60 years back. Later on, it was not permitted by the priests. Nowadays, only the priests enter the sanctum sanctorum.

The priests' contended that Swamy could sing it inside the temple premises, but not inside sanctum sanctorum.

----
the above is a 2008 article. More recently (just a few days ago), the Indian Supreme Court has handed over control of the temple back to the Dikshitar brahmins from whom control had been wrested by the state government:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/south/tamil-nadu-government-will-not-manage-famous-temple-rules-supreme-court-467452

by truthbetold Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:43 pm

Local language adoption would be great. lot of temple visitors break into conversation when long pujas are performed. may be they will play a little attention if they understand what is being said.
however such a change should come from devotees and priests and should be gradual process as local language equivalent were developed.

by truthbetold Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:44 pm

Local language adoption would be great. lot of temple visitors break into conversation when long pujas are performed. may be they will play a little attention if they understand what is being said.
however such a change should come from devotees and priests and should be gradual process as local language equivalent were developed.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:48 pm

truthbetold wrote:Local language adoption would be great. lot of temple visitors break into conversation when long pujas are performed. may be they will play a little attention if they understand what is being said.
however such a change should come from devotees and priests and should be gradual process as local language equivalent were developed.

the fear in the mind of the devotees and the priests is that the potency of the sanskrit mantras (from the Vedas) will be reduced or nullified if the prayers are not in sanskrit.

by truthbetold Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:09 pm

Rashmun wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Local language adoption would be great. lot of temple visitors break into conversation when long pujas are performed. may be they will play a little attention if they understand what is being said.
however such a change should come from devotees and priests and should be gradual process as local language equivalent were developed.

the fear in the mind of the devotees and the priests is that the potency of the sanskrit mantras (from the Vedas) will be reduced or nullified if the prayers are not in sanskrit.

Rash
religion is culture in my opinion. if the participants of a culture feel a certain way, we need to pay attention to those feelings. even if the argument of potency may be challenged by other sections of the same culture, these issues need to be resolved through discussion. part of temple management function.is to expect and anticipate such difference of opinion and create forums and atmosphere for discussion. a sensible system is one that allows people to express themselves but in the end points to an implementation path.
in this case, one can start with some puja in some temples be converted to.local language and allow devotees to feel and decide over a period of years.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:12 pm

Rashmun wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Local language adoption would be great. lot of temple visitors break into conversation when long pujas are performed. may be they will play a little attention if they understand what is being said.
however such a change should come from devotees and priests and should be gradual process as local language equivalent were developed.

the fear in the mind of the devotees and the priests is that the potency of the sanskrit mantras (from the Vedas) will be reduced or nullified if the prayers are not in sanskrit.

speak for yourself.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:19 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Local language adoption would be great. lot of temple visitors break into conversation when long pujas are performed. may be they will play a little attention if they understand what is being said.
however such a change should come from devotees and priests and should be gradual process as local language equivalent were developed.

the fear in the mind of the devotees and the priests is that the potency of the sanskrit mantras (from the Vedas) will be reduced or nullified if the prayers are not in sanskrit.

speak for yourself.

i am speaking on behalf of people like the Dikshitar brahmins who are the officiating priests in the Nataraja temple at Chidambaram and who insist that temple prayers will only be in Sanskrit. I am trying to explain the underlying rationale for their position on this issue.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:24 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Local language adoption would be great. lot of temple visitors break into conversation when long pujas are performed. may be they will play a little attention if they understand what is being said.
however such a change should come from devotees and priests and should be gradual process as local language equivalent were developed.

the fear in the mind of the devotees and the priests is that the potency of the sanskrit mantras (from the Vedas) will be reduced or nullified if the prayers are not in sanskrit.
Rash
religion is culture in my opinion. if the participants of a culture feel a certain way, we need to pay attention to those feelings. even if the argument of potency may be challenged by other sections of the same culture, these issues need to be resolved through discussion. part of temple management function.is to expect and anticipate such difference of opinion and create forums and atmosphere for discussion. a sensible system is one that allows people to express themselves but in the end points to an implementation path.
in this case, one can start with some puja in some temples be converted to.local language and allow devotees to feel and decide over a period of years.

TBT, i think you will agree that this issue of potency of a prayer consisting of sanskrit mantras from the Vedas is a lot more significant to the relatively mundane issue of whether temple food should be consumed while sitting on the floor in the temple or while seated on a chair. And yet....

--------

ON Sunday, August 23, Paramjit Pannu stormed out of the West Broward gurdwara in Florida, United States, after demanding that worshippers sit on the floor for the ritual langar, or community meal, as they do in India, instead of being seated on chairs and gathering around tables for a buffet lunch. Later he returned to the session of the Florida Sikh Society with a handgun. Pannu fired nine rounds into the congregation, killing Gurtej Dhaliwal, a gas station owner who emigrated to the U.S. 14 years ago, and injuring two others. The last round of fire he saved for himself.

Pannu's bizarre act was the outcome of a bitter war within the Sikh religious establishment over the practice and content of the faith, and also reflected the depth of passions involved. In July, Akal Takht Jathedar Ranjit Singh excommunicated six Sikh leaders in Canada for having defied his edict banning the partaking of langar seated on chairs arranged around tables. The Jathedar's edict, along with his efforts to take control of the World Sikh Council (WSC), have brought him in conflict with other powerful religious figures, notably his immediate predecessor in office, Manjit Singh, the Jathedar of the Sri Keshgarh Sahib Gurdwara, another key seat of Sikh religious authority.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1519/15190390.htm

by Rishi Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:36 pm

Rashmun wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Local language adoption would be great. lot of temple visitors break into conversation when long pujas are performed. may be they will play a little attention if they understand what is being said.
however such a change should come from devotees and priests and should be gradual process as local language equivalent were developed.

the fear in the mind of the devotees and the priests is that the potency of the sanskrit mantras (from the Vedas) will be reduced or nullified if the prayers are not in sanskrit.
Rash
religion is culture in my opinion. if the participants of a culture feel a certain way, we need to pay attention to those feelings. even if the argument of potency may be challenged by other sections of the same culture, these issues need to be resolved through discussion. part of temple management function.is to expect and anticipate such difference of opinion and create forums and atmosphere for discussion. a sensible system is one that allows people to express themselves but in the end points to an implementation path.
in this case, one can start with some puja in some temples be converted to.local language and allow devotees to feel and decide over a period of years.

TBT, i think you will agree that this issue of potency of a prayer consisting of sanskrit mantras from the Vedas is a lot more significant to the relatively mundane issue of whether temple food should be consumed while sitting on the floor in the temple or while seated on a chair. And yet....

--------

ON Sunday, August 23, Paramjit Pannu stormed out of the West Broward gurdwara in Florida, United States, after demanding that worshippers sit on the floor for the ritual langar, or community meal, as they do in India, instead of being seated on chairs and gathering around tables for a buffet lunch. Later he returned to the session of the Florida Sikh Society with a handgun. Pannu fired nine rounds into the congregation, killing Gurtej Dhaliwal, a gas station owner who emigrated to the U.S. 14 years ago, and injuring two others. The last round of fire he saved for himself.

Pannu's bizarre act was the outcome of a bitter war within the Sikh religious establishment over the practice and content of the faith, and also reflected the depth of passions involved. In July, Akal Takht Jathedar Ranjit Singh excommunicated six Sikh leaders in Canada for having defied his edict banning the partaking of langar seated on chairs arranged around tables. The Jathedar's edict, along with his efforts to take control of the World Sikh Council (WSC), have brought him in conflict with other powerful religious figures, notably his immediate predecessor in office, Manjit Singh, the Jathedar of the Sri Keshgarh Sahib Gurdwara, another key seat of Sikh religious authority.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1519/15190390.htm

>>>Stupid Sardarji!

This Sikh is worse than the white guy who went inside the Gurudwara in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, shot and killed innocent people.

by Rishi Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:42 pm

Rashmun,

A lot of TN brahmin priests who recite Sanskrit mantras do by rote. They do not know what exactly these mantras mean. Because they are not well versed in Sanskrit.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:47 pm

Rishi wrote:Rashmun,

A lot of TN brahmin priests who recite Sanskrit mantras do by rote. They do not know what exactly these mantras mean. Because they are not well versed in Sanskrit.

when it comes to the potency of a prayer consisting of mantras from the Vedas you don't really need to understand the content of what exactly you are chanting as long as you are chanting in the correct manner (in terms of pronunciation, etc.)

by truthbetold Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:32 pm

Rash and rishi
it is not unusual to have several issues in temple activities. there is not likely to be a universal solution. let 100 (or 116) flowers bloom.

a bigger and more controversial question is what should a temple with surplus funds? major temples in India have resources recalling major corporations. what should happen to these monies? swamy says it makes no sense to pay govt employees lot of money in the name of managing temples. who asked they to that!

by truthbetold Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:39 pm

Where should the temples spend their money?
1. temple affairs and devotee needs.
2. support religious activities outside temple
3. a significant portion of resources must be used to support education and hospitals in the major devotee locations. Ex. tirupati should spend large proportion in ap, tn , k taka, and support projects in rest of India.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:40 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Rishi wrote:Rashmun,

A lot of TN brahmin priests who recite Sanskrit mantras do by rote. They do not know what exactly these mantras mean. Because they are not well versed in Sanskrit.

when it comes to the potency of a prayer consisting of mantras from the Vedas you don't really need to understand the content of what exactly you are chanting as long as you are chanting in the correct manner (in terms of pronunciation, etc.)

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:10 pm

Mantras in local language -

This experiment was tried in a small temple in AP in the past (by Potuluri Veerabrahmam).

He translated "mantrapushpam" into colloquial Telugu and recited after nitya pooja.

The average folks, who used to listen to priests reciting the Sanskrit version, were very disappointed (as they could understand the meaning and weren't impressed with it).

These days in TN, may be, the average folks are also getting disappointed with the meaning when the Tamil version is recited and are, hence, becoming DKheads.

UP bhayyas murdered Sanskrit with their Hindi-ization of the words, sang like they were crying at a funeral and Gods decided to flee to SI. That might explain why sikularism is prominent in UP.

Very Happy

by Rishi Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:29 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Mantras in local language -

This experiment was tried in a small temple in AP in the past (by Potuluri Veerabrahmam).

He translated "mantrapushpam" into colloquial Telugu and recited after nitya pooja.

The average folks, who used to listen to priests reciting the Sanskrit version, were very disappointed (as they could understand the meaning and weren't impressed with it).

These days in TN, may be, the average folks are also getting disappointed with the meaning when the Tamil version is recited and are, hence, becoming DKheads.

UP bhayyas murdered Sanskrit with their Hindi-ization of the words, sang like they were crying at a funeral and Gods decided to flee to SI. That might explain why sikularism is prominent in UP.

>>>Why translate Vedas into Tamil?

Tamils can come up with their own mantras.

If Tamil way of worship had become the norm instead of the mindless recitation Sanskrit Mantras, the DKheads would have vanished a long time ago.

I despise DKheads for their virulent anti-brahminism, hatred of anything Hindu and for not condemning Islamic terrorism. But we have to accept the truth of what they say about using an arcane (and may be archaic too) language to worship.

by truthbetold Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:10 pm

Rishi
It is not easy to create new religious traditions in a world full of information. new religions die quickly. Hinduism cannot retain its followers by starting fresh. it can only survive by using traditions that existed for thousands of years.
you can modify and reform only in a way to keep the flock together.
a radical turn will force you out of the vast Hindu network.
change is necessary and unavoidable but it should be packaged to appeal to Hindu sentiments.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:21 pm

truthbetold wrote:Rishi
It is not easy to create new religious traditions in a world full of information. new religions die quickly. Hinduism cannot retain its followers by starting fresh. it can only survive by using traditions that existed for thousands of years.
you can modify and reform only in a way to keep the flock together.
a radical turn will force you out of the vast Hindu network.
change is necessary and unavoidable but it should be packaged to appeal to Hindu sentiments.

the age of the thevaram of the nayanmars is dated to the 7th century and azhwar pasurams is dated to the 8th century. nothing remotely modern or new about any of this. they have always been recited alongside sanskrit benedictions in TN temples. rashmun is just creating some silly issue out of a non-issue.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:21 pm

Rishi wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Mantras in local language -

This experiment was tried in a small temple in AP in the past (by Potuluri Veerabrahmam).

He translated "mantrapushpam" into colloquial Telugu and recited after nitya pooja.

The average folks, who used to listen to priests reciting the Sanskrit version, were very disappointed (as they could understand the meaning and weren't impressed with it).

These days in TN, may be, the average folks are also getting disappointed with the meaning when the Tamil version is recited and are, hence, becoming DKheads.

UP bhayyas murdered Sanskrit with their Hindi-ization of the words, sang like they were crying at a funeral and Gods decided to flee to SI. That might explain why sikularism is prominent in UP.

>>>Why translate Vedas into Tamil?

Tamils can come up with their own mantras.

If Tamil way of worship had become the norm instead of the mindless recitation Sanskrit Mantras, the DKheads would have vanished a long time ago.

I despise DKheads for their virulent anti-brahminism, hatred of anything Hindu and for not condemning Islamic terrorism. But we have to accept the truth of what they say about using an arcane (and may be archaic too) language to worship.

the vast majority of religious tamils--including many if not most DKheads--want their funeral rites to be conducted in sanskrit to the best of my knowledge.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:22 pm

Rashmun wrote:
the vast majority of religious tamils--including many if not most DKheads--want their funeral rites to be conducted in sanskrit to the best of my knowledge.

not true. you have no idea about interior tamil nadu and its culture.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:23 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Rishi
It is not easy to create new religious traditions in a world full of information. new religions die quickly. Hinduism cannot retain its followers by starting fresh. it can only survive by using traditions that existed for thousands of years.
you can modify and reform only in a way to keep the flock together.
a radical turn will force you out of the vast Hindu network.
change is necessary and unavoidable but it should be packaged to appeal to Hindu sentiments.

the age of the thevaram of the nayanmars is dated to the 7th century and azhwar pasurams is dated to the 8th century. nothing remotely modern or new about any of this. they have always been recited alongside sanskrit benedictions in TN temples. rashmun is just creating some silly issue out of a non-issue.

The Dikshitar brahmins are insisting on only sanskrit prayers in the Nataraja temple at Chidambaram. You should be blaming them instead of blaming me.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:25 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Rishi
It is not easy to create new religious traditions in a world full of information. new religions die quickly. Hinduism cannot retain its followers by starting fresh. it can only survive by using traditions that existed for thousands of years.
you can modify and reform only in a way to keep the flock together.
a radical turn will force you out of the vast Hindu network.
change is necessary and unavoidable but it should be packaged to appeal to Hindu sentiments.

the age of the thevaram of the nayanmars is dated to the 7th century and azhwar pasurams is dated to the 8th century. nothing remotely modern or new about any of this. they have always been recited alongside sanskrit benedictions in TN temples. rashmun is just creating some silly issue out of a non-issue.

The Dikshitar brahmins are insisting on only sanskrit prayers in the Nataraja temple at Chidambaram. You should be blaming them instead of blaming me.

that is just one temple where this may be the tradition. there are probably more than ten thousand temples big and small in TN. the othuvar tradition of reciting thevarams and iyengar priests reciting azhwar pasurams is alive and well in all of those temples. this was probably the case in the nataraja temple too until dk-heads and probably people like rashmun together got involved in stoking some flames.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:29 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Rishi
It is not easy to create new religious traditions in a world full of information. new religions die quickly. Hinduism cannot retain its followers by starting fresh. it can only survive by using traditions that existed for thousands of years.
you can modify and reform only in a way to keep the flock together.
a radical turn will force you out of the vast Hindu network.
change is necessary and unavoidable but it should be packaged to appeal to Hindu sentiments.

the age of the thevaram of the nayanmars is dated to the 7th century and azhwar pasurams is dated to the 8th century. nothing remotely modern or new about any of this. they have always been recited alongside sanskrit benedictions in TN temples. rashmun is just creating some silly issue out of a non-issue.

The Dikshitar brahmins are insisting on only sanskrit prayers in the Nataraja temple at Chidambaram. You should be blaming them instead of blaming me.

that is just one temple where this may be the tradition. there are probably more than ten thousand temples big and small in TN. the othuvar tradition of reciting thevarams and iyengar priests reciting azhwar pasurams is alive and well in all of those temples. this was probably the case in the nataraja temple too until dk-heads and probably people like rashmun together got involved in stoking some flames.

if it would have been a tradition in Nataraja temple to recite thevarams and and azhwar pasurams then the Dikshitar brahmins who have been in control of this temple for several centuries would not have objected to temple prayers in tamil. The fact is that in this temple there is a tradition of temple prayers being conducted only in sanskrit and this has been the practice for several centuries.I am not sure why i am being blamed repeatedly for this tradition in the Nataraja temple at Chidambaram as if i am in some way responsible for this tradiition.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:36 pm

truthbetold wrote:Rash and rishi
it is not unusual to have several issues in temple activities. there is not likely to be a universal solution. let 100 (or 116) flowers bloom.

a bigger and more controversial question is what should a temple with surplus funds? major temples in India have resources recalling major corporations. what should happen to these monies? swamy says it makes no sense to pay govt employees lot of money in the name of managing temples. who asked they to that!

Where should the temples spend their money?
1. temple affairs and devotee needs.
2. support religious activities outside temple
3. a significant portion of resources must be used to support education and hospitals in the major devotee locations. Ex. tirupati should spend large proportion in ap, tn , k taka, and support projects in rest of India.

i dont know about TN and AP but many (i am not saying most) priests in UP are not only corrupt but they are criminals. The offering made to a particular deity (sculpture) in some corner of the temple is pocketed by a particular priest. This is the practice in many (i am not saying most) temples in UP and perhaps the whole of India.

Temples can spend money on instructors for teaching yoga, classical music and classical dancing associated with hinduism and also any kind of literary activity associated with hinduism. Hanuman temples should support any kind of physical activity and physical exercise. Rich temples should try and give funds for educating and giving medical treatment to underpriviliged children.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:41 pm

the recent events in chidambaram with clashes between the dikshitars and oduvars is without a doubt precipitated by political stoking of fires. here is proof positive that not all dikshitars are opposed to the thevaram. how can it be? it is part of their own rich history.

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2009/03/27/stories/2009032751360300.htm

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:45 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the recent events in chidambaram with clashes between the dikshitars and oduvars is without a doubt precipitated by political stoking of fires. here is proof positive that not all dikshitars are opposed to the thevaram. how can it be? it is part of their own rich history.

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2009/03/27/stories/2009032751360300.htm

dikshitars are not opposed to thevarams. they are only opposed to singing thevarams or any other prayer in any other language other sanskrit in the sanctum sanctorum of the nataraja temple at chidambaram. since it is a centuries old tradition that the temple prayers in Chidambaram will only be in sanskrit.

by FluteHolder Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:48 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
UP bhayyas murdered Sanskrit with their Hindi-ization of the words, sang like they were crying at a funeral and Gods decided to flee to SI.

You said it. I could not stand any NI priest reciting mantras.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:50 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the recent events in chidambaram with clashes between the dikshitars and oduvars is without a doubt precipitated by political stoking of fires. here is proof positive that not all dikshitars are opposed to the thevaram. how can it be? it is part of their own rich history.

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2009/03/27/stories/2009032751360300.htm

dikshitars are not opposed to thevarams. they are only opposed to singing thevarams or any other prayer in any other language other sanskrit in the sanctum sanctorum of the nataraja temple at chidambaram. since it is a centuries old tradition that the temple prayers in Chidambaram will only be in sanskrit.

and i don't agree with them on this at all. and it appears to be only this one renegade group of brahmin priests in the chidambaram temple. nowhere else in TN do you see this sort of opposition to thevaram and azhwar pasurams in TN temples. in fact many of the saints who composed the bhakti poetry in tamil were themselves brahmins. the dikshitars of chidambaram have their heads stuck in their collective arse.

in fact in vaishnavite temples, the iyengar priests themselves are the ones who recite the pasurams.

by Rishi Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:57 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
the vast majority of religious tamils--including many if not most DKheads--want their funeral rites to be conducted in sanskrit to the best of my knowledge.

not true. you have no idea about interior tamil nadu and its culture.

>>> There are some communities in TN where they will have someone dance in front of the dead body on the way to burial grounds . They will play the traditional drums and conch etc along the way. I used to think that was primitive because death is supposed to be a somber occasion.

In fact, I heard someone mention that dalit hindus are better off converting to Christianity because Christians make death and burial a serious matter. No music, no dancing there.

But I have changed my views. Who is anyone to say how death is to be dealt with? In fact, celeberating the death of someone makes more sense. After all that person is liberated from the world full of misery.

Why is that it is OK for Bengali Hindus (which includes Brahmins as well) to slaughter buffaloes and goats for Durga but not OK for Tamil Hindus to conduct prayers in Tamil?

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:07 pm

Rishi wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
the vast majority of religious tamils--including many if not most DKheads--want their funeral rites to be conducted in sanskrit to the best of my knowledge.

not true. you have no idea about interior tamil nadu and its culture.

>>> There are some communities in TN where they will have someone dance in front of the dead body on the way to burial grounds . They will play the traditional drums and conch etc along the way. I used to think that was primitive because death is supposed to be a somber occasion.

In fact, I heard someone mention that dalit hindus are better off converting to Christianity because Christians make death and burial a serious matter. No music, no dancing there.

But I have changed my views. Who is anyone to say how death is to be dealt with? In fact, celeberating the death of someone makes more sense. After all that person is liberated from the world full of misery.

Why is that it is OK for Bengali Hindus (which includes Brahmins as well) to slaughter buffaloes and goats for Durga but not OK for Tamil Hindus to conduct prayers in Tamil?

bengali hindus are slaughtering buffaloes and goats for Durga because it is a part of their centuries old tradition. Only prayers in sanskrit are recited in the sanctum sanctorum of the Nataraja temple in Chidambaram because this is a centuries old tradition as per the Dikshitar brahmins who are the custodians of this temple.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:16 pm

the dikshitars of chidambaram have a vested interest. when there is a dispute like this, best to commission disinterested historians to investigate the matter. also it is good to ask the opinions of other tamil brahmin priests in important neighboring temples in thanjavur, kumbakonam, and thiruchi.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:17 pm

and i am quite sure rashmun has no interest in this matter beyond the piddly little controversy because it serves to further his sanskrito-hindi agenda.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:19 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the dikshitars of chidambaram have a vested interest. when there is a dispute like this, best to commission disinterested historians to investigate the matter. also it is good to ask the opinions of other tamil brahmin priests in important neighboring temples in thanjavur, kumbakonam, and thiruchi.

what possible vested interest can the Dikshitars of Chidambaram have in this matter? There is sufficient evidence available that the Dikshitars have been the custodians of this temple for several centuries. The Indian Supreme Court has recently given ownership of the temple back to the Dikshitars (it had temporarily been wrested from them by the state government ) so i think the Dikshitars would argue that the priests in other temples have no locus standi in this matter.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:20 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and i am quite sure rashmun has no interest in this matter beyond the piddly little controversy because it serves to further his sanskrito-hindi agenda.

I have personally visited the Nataraja temple in Chidambaram for your information. I felt very spiritual vibes when i was there. The temple belongs to me as much as it belongs to you.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:08 pm

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12707-tamil-versus-sanskrit.html

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:28 pm

i spent four years of my life in kanchipuram. every month we visited the varadaraja perumal temple. not once did i observe such scenes. i suppose if one's brain is filled with excrement one notices shit. others simply enjoy the melting pasurams.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:29 pm

rashmun you are a worthy shit digger.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:32 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun you are a worthy shit digger.

i am a student of religion and religious philosophy.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:38 pm

but one has to put your shit digging in context. you seem to be aware of the antiquity of the tamil language and its connection to hinduism, yet feel left out of all that because you don't know the language. hence you react by digging up shit. give this up and learn tamil instead. much better value for your time and more productive.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:53 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:but one has to put your shit digging in context. you seem to be aware of the antiquity of the tamil language and its connection to hinduism, yet feel left out of all that because you don't know the language. hence you react by digging up shit. give this up and learn tamil instead. much better value for your time and more productive.

the question of why the Dikshitar brahmins do not permit prayers in tamil in the sanctum sanctorum of the Nataraja temple in Chidambaram would still remain even if i were to learn tamil.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:09 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:but one has to put your shit digging in context. you seem to be aware of the antiquity of the tamil language and its connection to hinduism, yet feel left out of all that because you don't know the language. hence you react by digging up shit. give this up and learn tamil instead. much better value for your time and more productive.

the question of why the Dikshitar brahmins do not permit prayers in tamil in the sanctum sanctorum of the Nataraja temple in Chidambaram would still remain even if i were to learn tamil.

your motivations would have been more believable if you confined yourself in this thread to the discussion about the chidambaram dikshitars. instead you went googling for shit about priests quarreling about sanskrit and tamil in kanchipuram.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:19 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:but one has to put your shit digging in context. you seem to be aware of the antiquity of the tamil language and its connection to hinduism, yet feel left out of all that because you don't know the language. hence you react by digging up shit. give this up and learn tamil instead. much better value for your time and more productive.

the question of why the Dikshitar brahmins do not permit prayers in tamil in the sanctum sanctorum of the Nataraja temple in Chidambaram would still remain even if i were to learn tamil.

your motivations would have been more believable if you confined yourself in this thread to the discussion about the chidambaram dikshitars. instead you went googling for shit about priests quarreling about sanskrit and tamil in kanchipuram.

i was checking for more information on Chidambaram only but came across the information given in the thread whose link i gave by chance. what this indicated to me was the language issue (sanskrit vs tamil) need not necessarily be confined to Chidambaram. Also, I have to say I really loved the way Ramanuja is said to have handled the problem (what follows below is from the discussion whose link i gave earlier):

In Vishnu temples(this includes Kanchi temple too) when the deity is taken out in a procession, it is a settled practice to chant vedas in sanskrit and prabhantham in tamil. The bhaktas (called the ghoshti) chanting the tamil prabhantham always goes ahead of the deity which is carried by devotees called sreepaathamthaangikal. The vedam chanting ghoshti follows the deity. The bhaktas surround the deity and thus the whole assembly of people move. Thus there is no scope for veda ghoshti shouting down the prabhantha ghoshti or vice versa. When we look at things wearing a colored glass we see them in color. This practice was codified by Sri Ramanuja and is followed by every Vishnu temple. So one can say Tamil has a pride of place if one is looking for such a pride.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:35 pm

there are some peculiarities about the Dikshitar brahmins and the Nataraja temple. When i was in the Nataraja temple in Chidambaram i had some conversations with some of these Dikshitars who are the priests in this temple. They told me some interesting things including:
1. They said they are direct descendants of Lord Shiva (when i narrated this to a senior telugu friend he laughed and said 'we are all direct descendants of Lord Shiva')
2. It was very hot at the place where the main Shiva idol is kept in this temple. I could tell because the priest(s) performing the aarati was sweating profusely even though it was not hot where i was standing and none of the devotees were sweating. I asked them why they keep the main shiva idol in an enclosure which is so hot and they said they believe Shiva is in the Himalayas and hence he must be feeling cold and thus they keep his idol in this environment so as to make him feel more comfortable.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:40 pm

Rashmun wrote:there are some peculiarities about the Dikshitar brahmins and the Nataraja temple. When i was in the Nataraja temple in Chidambaram i had some conversations with some of these Dikshitars who are the priests in this temple. They told me some interesting things including:
1. They said they are direct descendants of Lord Shiva (when i narrated this to a senior telugu friend he laughed and said 'we are all direct descendants of Lord Shiva')
2. It was very hot at the place where the main Shiva idol is kept in this temple. I could tell because the priest(s) performing the aarati was sweating profusely even though it was not hot where i was standing and none of the devotees were sweating. I asked them why they keep the main shiva idol in an enclosure which is so hot and they said they believe Shiva is in the Himalayas and hence he must be feeling cold and thus they keep his idol in this environment so as to make him feel more comfortable.

3. There is a large statue of Vishnu in this temple. This is the only ancient Shiva temple in Tamil Nadu where there pride of place given to Vishnu. Even though the Vishnu idol is at a completely different angle and at some distance from the main Shiva idol there is a particular spot from which--if you are standing on this spot--you can see both the Vishnu and Shiva idols. I am informed that although Shaivites pray to both the Vishnu and Shiva idols, many Vaishnavites pray only to the Vishnu idol.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:58 pm

Rashmun wrote:
3. There is a large statue of Vishnu in this temple. This is the only ancient Shiva temple in Tamil Nadu where there pride of place given to Vishnu. Even though the Vishnu idol is at a completely different angle and at some distance from the main Shiva idol there is a particular spot from which--if you are standing on this spot--you can see both the Vishnu and Shiva idols. I am informed that although Shaivites pray to both the Vishnu and Shiva idols, many Vaishnavites pray only to the Vishnu idol.

good to see you regurgitating information i had given you just last year.

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