swamy - Hindu temples to Hindus

Kinnera wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the simple truth is i just don't believe the chidambara dikshitars. i'd like a disinterested party that is comprised of proper historians that are neither from the dikshitar community nor the oduvar community to do some historical research. the reason i say that is that everywhere in TN the norm is that tamil bhakti poetry takes a central role in temple worship in addition to sanskrit liturgy. i find the explanations about the kashmiri king etc. thoroughly unconvincing. on the other side of the controversy is the undeniable fact that there are so many beautiful thevAra paNNs about chidambaram, many of which were composed by tamil brahmins! they couldn't have been composed in a complete vacuum.

Hinduism thrived on one main thing: parampara, the guru-sishya parampara or other forms of parampara-the handing over of traditions from one generation to another. The vedas, without even a written text, have been preserved and passed on in the same fashion for thousands of years. Brahmins, esp priests, are sticklers for hanging on to tradition and rightfully so. If tamil verses are not chanted currently in some temples, then they have never been chanted there. No one you would've dared change that tradition.

Believe what you want to believe, if it satisfies your mindset.

I am outta this thread. I have nothing more to add.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:.other tamil hindus who have been remarkably silent (uppili, impy, rishi, ponniyin selvan, GC etc.) can chime in anytime they want.

Hellsangel wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:.other tamil hindus who have been remarkably silent (uppili, impy, rishi, ponniyin selvan, GC etc.) can chime in anytime they want.

Maybe Trollus will chime in.

“During the reign of Raja Raja Chola, the king heard the Thevaram sung with great devotion. The king liked the tune and the words so much that he had the hymns traced to Chidambaram, where they were found in the corner of the temple, written on chuvadis. But there was a hitch — the caretakers wouldn’t hand them over. So, the images of the saints Appar, Sambandar, Sundarar and Manikavachagar — who lived between the 6th and 8th centuries and wrote the hymns — were taken out in a procession, and the hymns were recovered and compiled,”

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and there are historical connections between the thevAram and the chidambaram temple:

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/society/i-amm-kodilingam-thevaram-singer-and-teacher/article4660577.ece

“During the reign of Raja Raja Chola, the king heard the Thevaram sung with great devotion. The king liked the tune and the words so much that he had the hymns traced to Chidambaram, where they were found in the corner of the temple, written on chuvadis. But there was a hitch — the caretakers wouldn’t hand them over. So, the images of the saints Appar, Sambandar, Sundarar and Manikavachagar — who lived between the 6th and 8th centuries and wrote the hymns — were taken out in a procession, and the hymns were recovered and compiled,”

when i read this though, i get the sense that the DDs have been DDs for a long time.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and there are historical connections between the thevAram and the chidambaram temple:

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/society/i-amm-kodilingam-thevaram-singer-and-teacher/article4660577.ece

“During the reign of Raja Raja Chola, the king heard the Thevaram sung with great devotion. The king liked the tune and the words so much that he had the hymns traced to Chidambaram, where they were found in the corner of the temple, written on chuvadis. But there was a hitch — the caretakers wouldn’t hand them over. So, the images of the saints Appar, Sambandar, Sundarar and Manikavachagar — who lived between the 6th and 8th centuries and wrote the hymns — were taken out in a procession, and the hymns were recovered and compiled,”

when i read this though, i get the sense that the DDs have been DDs for a long time.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and there are historical connections between the thevAram and the chidambaram temple:

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/society/i-amm-kodilingam-thevaram-singer-and-teacher/article4660577.ece

“During the reign of Raja Raja Chola, the king heard the Thevaram sung with great devotion. The king liked the tune and the words so much that he had the hymns traced to Chidambaram, where they were found in the corner of the temple, written on chuvadis. But there was a hitch — the caretakers wouldn’t hand them over. So, the images of the saints Appar, Sambandar, Sundarar and Manikavachagar — who lived between the 6th and 8th centuries and wrote the hymns — were taken out in a procession, and the hymns were recovered and compiled,”

when i read this though, i get the sense that the DDs have been DDs for a long time.

Why should the Dikshitars have gifted the images (on which the word were engraved) to the king? They allowed the images to be taken out in a procession, the words copied, and the images returned.

Raja Raja Chola I (985-1013 CE) embarked on a mission to recover the hymns after hearing short excerpts of Tevaram in his court.[4] He sought the help of Nambi Andar Nambi, who was a priest in a temple.[5] It is believed that by divine intervention Nambi found the presence of scripts, in the form of cadijam leaves half eaten by white ants in a chamber inside the second precinct in Thillai Nataraja Temple, Chidambaram.[5][4] The brahmanas (Dikshitars) in the temple opposed the mission, but Rajaraja intervened by consecrating the images of the saint-poets through the streets of Chidambaram.[4][6] Rajaraja thus became to be known as Tirumurai Kanda Cholan meaning one who saved the Tirumurai.[6] Thus far Shiva temples only had images of god forms, but after the advent of Rajaraja, the images of the Nayanar saints were also placed inside the temple.[6] Nambi arranged the hymns of three saint poets Sampantar, Appar and Sundarar as the first seven books, Manickavasagar's Tirukovayar and Tiruvacakam as the 8th book, the 28 hymns of nine other saints as the 9th book, the Tirumandiram of Tirumular as the 10th book, 40 hymns by 12 other poets as the 10th book, Tirutotanar Tiruvanthathi - the sacred anthathi of the labours of the 63 nayanar saints and added his own hymns as the 11th book.[7] The first seven books were later called as Tevaram, and the whole Saiva canon, to which was added, as the 12th book, Sekkizhar's Periya Puranam (1135 CE) is wholly known as Tirumurai, the holy book. Thus Saiva literature which covers about 600 years of religious, philosophical and literary development.[7]

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and there are historical connections between the thevAram and the chidambaram temple:

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/society/i-amm-kodilingam-thevaram-singer-and-teacher/article4660577.ece

“During the reign of Raja Raja Chola, the king heard the Thevaram sung with great devotion. The king liked the tune and the words so much that he had the hymns traced to Chidambaram, where they were found in the corner of the temple, written on chuvadis. But there was a hitch — the caretakers wouldn’t hand them over. So, the images of the saints Appar, Sambandar, Sundarar and Manikavachagar — who lived between the 6th and 8th centuries and wrote the hymns — were taken out in a procession, and the hymns were recovered and compiled,”

when i read this though, i get the sense that the DDs have been DDs for a long time.

Why should the Dikshitars have gifted the images (on which the word were engraved) to the king? They allowed the images to be taken out in a procession, the words copied, and the images returned.

why keep the images of the saints who wrote poetry that they didn't much care about (if that's what the historical record is) anyway?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:people who care deeply about something don't let ants eat away at original manuscripts.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:people who care deeply about something don't let ants eat away at original manuscripts.

This is a mythological story involving divine intervention. Seems more like a cooked up story to me. If the manuscript were half eaten by ants how come we have the entire literature available to us today ?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:people who care deeply about something don't let ants eat away at original manuscripts.

This is a mythological story involving divine intervention. Seems more like a cooked up story to me. If the manuscript were half eaten by ants how come we have the entire literature available to us today ?

the role of nambiyAndan nambi and rAja rAjan are not mythological. i think there is recorded history about their roles.

Rashmun wrote:This article was published after the Madras High Court passed a judgement wresting control of the temple away from the Dikshitars and before the Supreme Court gave temple control back to the Dikshitars:

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20091023262102600.htm&date=fl2621/&prd=fline&

The article has important clarifications on some of the issues discussed in this thread.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this doesn't show the dikshitars in a good light at all! beating a fellow up because he sang the thevaram! i feel justified in coining the term DD to refer to them. thuggish behavior and unbecoming of men of god.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this doesn't show the dikshitars in a good light at all! beating a fellow up because he sang the thevaram! i feel justified in coining the term DD to refer to them. thuggish behavior and unbecoming of men of god.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this doesn't show the dikshitars in a good light at all! beating a fellow up because he sang the thevaram! i feel justified in coining the term DD to refer to them. thuggish behavior and unbecoming of men of god.

and i wonder if the quarrel with the sri vaishnavites at the govindaraja perumAL temple was about the chanting of AzhwAr pasurams in tamil. the article seemed to hint at it.  the sri vaishnavites have always made the pasurams a part of their religious canons.

According to the local people, a section of Dikshitars are in the news every now and then for the wrong reasons. There have been reports that they take the law into their own hands whenever some problem arises. Citing an instance, they said a group of Dikshitars assaulted mediapersons inside the temple and snatched or damaged their cameras on January 7, 2004.

Local journalists lodged a complaint with the Chidambaram town police, naming four Dikshitars. In another incident, the Dikshitars ransacked the office of the executive officer of the temple shortly after his appointment was upheld by the High Court 12 years ago. The office signboard and furniture were smashed then, local people recalled.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and they seem to be in the news usually for all the wrong reasons.

According to the local people, a section of Dikshitars are in the news every now and then for the wrong reasons. There have been reports that they take the law into their own hands whenever some problem arises. Citing an instance, they said a group of Dikshitars assaulted mediapersons inside the temple and snatched or damaged their cameras on January 7, 2004.

Local journalists lodged a complaint with the Chidambaram town police, naming four Dikshitars. In another incident, the Dikshitars ransacked the office of the executive officer of the temple shortly after his appointment was upheld by the High Court 12 years ago. The office signboard and furniture were smashed then, local people recalled.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and they seem to be in the news usually for all the wrong reasons.

According to the local people, a section of Dikshitars are in the news every now and then for the wrong reasons. There have been reports that they take the law into their own hands whenever some problem arises. Citing an instance, they said a group of Dikshitars assaulted mediapersons inside the temple and snatched or damaged their cameras on January 7, 2004.

Local journalists lodged a complaint with the Chidambaram town police, naming four Dikshitars. In another incident, the Dikshitars ransacked the office of the executive officer of the temple shortly after his appointment was upheld by the High Court 12 years ago. The office signboard and furniture were smashed then, local people recalled.

They damaged the cameras because there are strict rules about not taking pictures inside the temple premises and the people whose cameras got damaged must have been taking pictures of the temple idols.  I am surprised how you keep being judgemental about them.

Rashmun wrote:Their collective ownership of the temple is institutionalized through endogamous marriages (Dikshitars are allowed to marry only within the community, hence all the families are related to each other). Since only married sons can become officiating priests – which in turn entitles them to become equal members of the collectivity and earn a share of the revenues -, universal and early marriage is the norm. The governance of the temple is conducted by regularly elected committees, in which all the families are represented by rotation. Similarly, daily poojas are conducted by a team of six Dikshitars drawn from six families, again by rotation. It is said that, given the principle of equality on which the community members function in relation to each other, at committee meetings no single person can arrogate to himself the position of Chair. Hence the temple store keeper – invariably a salaried outsider – is requested to step in to conduct meetings!

The Dikshitars have historically safeguarded their autonomy in matters of temple governance by never accepting land or cash grants from any single external agency. Rather, they built a core of hereditarily enduring relationships with ‘patrons’ who made periodic and annual donations to the temple; and they supplemented these revenues with one-off donations from visitors to the temple. This invisible and unarticulated web of one-on-one relationships between priests and worshippers has been the hallmark of the Chidambaram temple. Through the last 15 centuries, the entitlements and conventions of the Dikshitars were scrupulously respected, first by the various princely dynasties – Chola, Pandya, Vijayanagar – that ruled the region successively, then by the British, and finally by the Supreme Court of independent India.

http://rr2606.wordpress.com/2010/04/20/chidambaram/

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Their collective ownership of the temple is institutionalized through endogamous marriages (Dikshitars are allowed to marry only within the community, hence all the families are related to each other). Since only married sons can become officiating priests – which in turn entitles them to become equal members of the collectivity and earn a share of the revenues -, universal and early marriage is the norm. The governance of the temple is conducted by regularly elected committees, in which all the families are represented by rotation. Similarly, daily poojas are conducted by a team of six Dikshitars drawn from six families, again by rotation. It is said that, given the principle of equality on which the community members function in relation to each other, at committee meetings no single person can arrogate to himself the position of Chair. Hence the temple store keeper – invariably a salaried outsider – is requested to step in to conduct meetings!

The Dikshitars have historically safeguarded their autonomy in matters of temple governance by never accepting land or cash grants from any single external agency. Rather, they built a core of hereditarily enduring relationships with ‘patrons’ who made periodic and annual donations to the temple; and they supplemented these revenues with one-off donations from visitors to the temple. This invisible and unarticulated web of one-on-one relationships between priests and worshippers has been the hallmark of the Chidambaram temple. Through the last 15 centuries, the entitlements and conventions of the Dikshitars were scrupulously respected, first by the various princely dynasties – Chola, Pandya, Vijayanagar – that ruled the region successively, then by the British, and finally by the Supreme Court of independent India.

http://rr2606.wordpress.com/2010/04/20/chidambaram/

>>> I agree with Subramaniam Swamy's posture on these ancient temples needing to be wrested away from governmental control. The idea of  government oversight as  a remedy to financial irregularities is a joke. Also, I read the blog on Chidambaram above (nicely written, by the way), but am still not clear on the ownership aspect with regard to the temple. If the Deekshitars own it and they are the sole owners, they are legally entitled to use Sanskrit, if that is their preference. If there are other stakeholders, the other stakeholders will have a say as well. The blog mentions visitors as contributors. I imagine they are not an organized force. The government should have a voice, only if the temple gets government subsidies or even a tax exemption. If this is not the case, this language issue will boil down to what the market wants. Then it will be a numbers game.*  

*P.S. I am not familiar with temple protocols or what it takes to change them. These protocols could be the reason why the devotees have gone along with 'Sanskrit only' rule at this temple, despite many not being exposed to Sanskrit.

Rashmun wrote:
The controversy about temple management in the Nataraja temple at least has come to an end after the Supreme Court handed over temple management back to the Dikshitars after the DMK state govt had wrested control of the temple from them on the ground that they were indulging in mismanagement and irregularities. The court held that the state govt can take over management of the temple temporarily for for some time if there is some kind of irregularity or mismanagement in the temple administration but it cannot do so permanently and eventually temple management has to be given back to the Dikshitars.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and they seem to be in the news usually for all the wrong reasons.

According to the local people, a section of Dikshitars are in the news every now and then for the wrong reasons. There have been reports that they take the law into their own hands whenever some problem arises. Citing an instance, they said a group of Dikshitars assaulted mediapersons inside the temple and snatched or damaged their cameras on January 7, 2004.

Local journalists lodged a complaint with the Chidambaram town police, naming four Dikshitars. In another incident, the Dikshitars ransacked the office of the executive officer of the temple shortly after his appointment was upheld by the High Court 12 years ago. The office signboard and furniture were smashed then, local people recalled.

They damaged the cameras because there are strict rules about not taking pictures inside the temple premises and the people whose cameras got damaged must have been taking pictures of the temple idols.  I am surprised how you keep being judgemental about them.

i am getting a more complete view of them and it unfortunately only reinforces my already poor opinion of them. not allowing their women to leave chidambaram? marriage at the age of five? wtf? sorry what planet and what era do these guys think they are living in? even traditions have some limits informed by common decency and current socially acceptable norms. thanks for posting this hindu article.

Kinnera wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and they seem to be in the news usually for all the wrong reasons.

According to the local people, a section of Dikshitars are in the news every now and then for the wrong reasons. There have been reports that they take the law into their own hands whenever some problem arises. Citing an instance, they said a group of Dikshitars assaulted mediapersons inside the temple and snatched or damaged their cameras on January 7, 2004.

Local journalists lodged a complaint with the Chidambaram town police, naming four Dikshitars. In another incident, the Dikshitars ransacked the office of the executive officer of the temple shortly after his appointment was upheld by the High Court 12 years ago. The office signboard and furniture were smashed then, local people recalled.

They damaged the cameras because there are strict rules about not taking pictures inside the temple premises and the people whose cameras got damaged must have been taking pictures of the temple idols.  I am surprised how you keep being judgemental about them.

i am getting a more complete view of them and it unfortunately only reinforces my already poor opinion of them. not allowing their women to leave chidambaram? marriage at the age of five? wtf? sorry what planet and what era do these guys think they are living in? even traditions have some limits informed by common decency and current socially acceptable norms. thanks for posting this hindu article.

That's from a report of a britisher written in 1909, more than a century ago, not the current era. Selective comprehension, eh?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:but this DMK business is a bit of a red herring. there is opposition to the dikshitars' stubborn and unrelenting position from among the hindu public that the temple serves. and i disagree fundamentally with the notion of ownership of a temple by priests. the temple exists for the public, the priests are custodians, no more.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this doesn't show the dikshitars in a good light at all! beating a fellow up because he sang the thevaram! i feel justified in coining the term DD to refer to them. thuggish behavior and unbecoming of men of god.

They beat him up not because he sang the thevaram but because he sang it from the sanctum Santorum in violation of tradition and despite knowing that this is a sacred tradition. He could have sung the thevaram somewhere else in the temple. He was asking for it.

Kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:
The controversy about temple management in the Nataraja temple at least has come to an end after the Supreme Court handed over temple management back to the Dikshitars after the DMK state govt had wrested control of the temple from them on the ground that they were indulging in mismanagement and irregularities. The court held that the state govt can take over management of the temple temporarily for for some time if there is some kind of irregularity or mismanagement in the temple administration but it cannot do so permanently and eventually temple management has to be given back to the Dikshitars.

Let the DMK govt take over the mosques and insist that the Koran be read in Tamil and not Arabic. All their actions against the Chidambaram temple are with sinister intentions and kudos to the Dikshitars for standing their ground and fighting back.

Kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this doesn't show the dikshitars in a good light at all! beating a fellow up because he sang the thevaram! i feel justified in coining the term DD to refer to them. thuggish behavior and unbecoming of men of god.

They beat him up not because he sang the thevaram but because he sang it from the sanctum Santorum in violation of tradition and despite knowing that this is a sacred tradition. He could have sung the thevaram somewhere else in the temple. He was asking for it.

If the guy wanted to read the tamil thevarams, he could've done so sitting somewhere in the corridors of the temple and reciting silently to himself. He needn't have done it in the Sanctum Santorium, singing loudly. A person with true bhakti wouldn't do that. That was done with malicious intentions. He knew he was going to be opposed and wanted that so he could file a case in the court.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:
The controversy about temple management in the Nataraja temple at least has come to an end after the Supreme Court handed over temple management back to the Dikshitars after the DMK state govt had wrested control of the temple from them on the ground that they were indulging in mismanagement and irregularities. The court held that the state govt can take over management of the temple temporarily for for some time if there is some kind of irregularity or mismanagement in the temple administration but it cannot do so permanently and eventually temple management has to be given back to the Dikshitars.

Let the DMK govt take over the mosques and insist that the Koran be read in Tamil and not Arabic. All their actions against the Chidambaram temple are with sinister intentions and kudos to the Dikshitars for standing their ground and fighting back.

the tradition of singing the panniru thirumurais in saivite temples is neither radical nor modern. it is a very ancient tradition in TN. perhaps this is not the practice elsewhere in india, but tamil posesses a very ancient and extensive body of religious literature, much of which has been in use in temples dating back to the seventh century at the very least.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:
The controversy about temple management in the Nataraja temple at least has come to an end after the Supreme Court handed over temple management back to the Dikshitars after the DMK state govt had wrested control of the temple from them on the ground that they were indulging in mismanagement and irregularities. The court held that the state govt can take over management of the temple temporarily for for some time if there is some kind of irregularity or mismanagement in the temple administration but it cannot do so permanently and eventually temple management has to be given back to the Dikshitars.

Let the DMK govt take over the mosques and insist that the Koran be read in Tamil and not Arabic. All their actions against the Chidambaram temple are with sinister intentions and kudos to the Dikshitars for standing their ground and fighting back.

the tradition of singing the panniru thirumurais in saivite temples is neither radical nor modern. it is a very ancient tradition in TN. perhaps this is not the practice elsewhere in india, but tamil posesses a very ancient and extensive body of religious literature, much of which has been in use in temples dating back to the seventh century at the very least.

Kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:
The controversy about temple management in the Nataraja temple at least has come to an end after the Supreme Court handed over temple management back to the Dikshitars after the DMK state govt had wrested control of the temple from them on the ground that they were indulging in mismanagement and irregularities. The court held that the state govt can take over management of the temple temporarily for for some time if there is some kind of irregularity or mismanagement in the temple administration but it cannot do so permanently and eventually temple management has to be given back to the Dikshitars.

Let the DMK govt take over the mosques and insist that the Koran be read in Tamil and not Arabic. All their actions against the Chidambaram temple are with sinister intentions and kudos to the Dikshitars for standing their ground and fighting back.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:aside: i am not sure if the koran is actually read in tamil in TN mosques, but there is a rich body of islamic religious poetry dating back to the eighteenth and nineteenth century written in tamil. one of these is the sIrApurANam, a life of the prophet, written in a style closely mimicking and in the same meter as the kambarAmAyaNam.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_language#Hinduism wrote:Hinduism is traditionally considered to have two liturgical languages, Sanskrit and Tamil. Sanskrit is the language of the Vedas, Bhagavadgita, Puranas like Bhagavatham, and the Upanishads, and various other liturgical texts such as the Sahasranama, Chamakam and Rudram. It is also the tongue of most Hindu rituals.
Tamil is the language of the 12 Tirumurais (which consists of the great devotional hymns of Tevaram, Tiruvacakam etc.,) and the Naalaayira Divya Prabhandham (considered to be the essence of the Vedas, in Tamil, and all in praise of Lord Vishnu). These devotional hymns, which were sung in almost every Shiva and Vishnu temple of the South India, the then Tamil country and even North Indian temples like Badrinath Temple, are considered to be the basis for the Bhakti movement which saved Hinduism from extinction.[3]
The people following Kaumaram, Vainavam, Shaivam sects of South India and use Tamil as liturgical language along with Sanskrit. Divya Prabandha is chanted in most of the South Indian Vishnu temples like Tirupati.Indian literature . Dravidian people considered their language Tamil to be sacred and divine with equal status to Sanskrit within temple rituals, which is still being followed even by some temples in present day non-Tamil speaking areas. The divya prabhandams and Devarams are referred to as Dravida Vedam (Tamil Veda).
A long standing myth states that Sanskrit and Tamil emerged from either side of Lord Shiva's divine drum of creation as he danced the dance of creation as Nataraja or sound of cosmic force.
Also most of the devotional texts on Lord Murugan or Subramanian are in Tamil and references in the Ancient Tamil literature traces the origin of Lord Murugan to the Ancient Tamil country.[4]
Tamils consider their language itself as a goddess TamilThaai. She is worshiped by tamils all over the world. In Madurai, there is a temple for Goddess Tamil Thaai!.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:but this DMK business is a bit of a red herring. there is opposition to the dikshitars' stubborn and unrelenting position from among the hindu public that the temple serves. and i disagree fundamentally with the notion of ownership of a temple by priests. the temple exists for the public, the priests are custodians, no more.

Hellsangel wrote:Also the link from Adhan led me to liturgical language and I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_language#Hinduism wrote:Hinduism is traditionally considered to have two liturgical languages, Sanskrit and Tamil. Sanskrit is the language of the Vedas, Bhagavadgita, Puranas like Bhagavatham, and the Upanishads, and various other liturgical texts such as the Sahasranama, Chamakam and Rudram. It is also the tongue of most Hindu rituals.
Tamil is the language of the 12 Tirumurais (which consists of the great devotional hymns of Tevaram, Tiruvacakam etc.,) and the Naalaayira Divya Prabhandham (considered to be the essence of the Vedas, in Tamil, and all in praise of Lord Vishnu). These devotional hymns, which were sung in almost every Shiva and Vishnu temple of the South India, the then Tamil country and even North Indian temples like Badrinath Temple, are considered to be the basis for the Bhakti movement which saved Hinduism from extinction.[3]
The people following Kaumaram, Vainavam, Shaivam sects of South India and use Tamil as liturgical language along with Sanskrit. Divya Prabandha is chanted in most of the South Indian Vishnu temples like Tirupati.Indian literature . Dravidian people considered their language Tamil to be sacred and divine with equal status to Sanskrit within temple rituals, which is still being followed even by some temples in present day non-Tamil speaking areas. The divya prabhandams and Devarams are referred to as Dravida Vedam (Tamil Veda).
A long standing myth states that Sanskrit and Tamil emerged from either side of Lord Shiva's divine drum of creation as he danced the dance of creation as Nataraja or sound of cosmic force.
Also most of the devotional texts on Lord Murugan or Subramanian are in Tamil and references in the Ancient Tamil literature traces the origin of Lord Murugan to the Ancient Tamil country.[4]
Tamils consider their language itself as a goddess TamilThaai. She is worshiped by tamils all over the world. In Madurai, there is a temple for Goddess Tamil Thaai!.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:Also the link from Adhan led me to liturgical language and I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_language#Hinduism wrote:Hinduism is traditionally considered to have two liturgical languages, Sanskrit and Tamil. Sanskrit is the language of the Vedas, Bhagavadgita, Puranas like Bhagavatham, and the Upanishads, and various other liturgical texts such as the Sahasranama, Chamakam and Rudram. It is also the tongue of most Hindu rituals.
Tamil is the language of the 12 Tirumurais (which consists of the great devotional hymns of Tevaram, Tiruvacakam etc.,) and the Naalaayira Divya Prabhandham (considered to be the essence of the Vedas, in Tamil, and all in praise of Lord Vishnu). These devotional hymns, which were sung in almost every Shiva and Vishnu temple of the South India, the then Tamil country and even North Indian temples like Badrinath Temple, are considered to be the basis for the Bhakti movement which saved Hinduism from extinction.[3]
The people following Kaumaram, Vainavam, Shaivam sects of South India and use Tamil as liturgical language along with Sanskrit. Divya Prabandha is chanted in most of the South Indian Vishnu temples like Tirupati.Indian literature . Dravidian people considered their language Tamil to be sacred and divine with equal status to Sanskrit within temple rituals, which is still being followed even by some temples in present day non-Tamil speaking areas. The divya prabhandams and Devarams are referred to as Dravida Vedam (Tamil Veda).
A long standing myth states that Sanskrit and Tamil emerged from either side of Lord Shiva's divine drum of creation as he danced the dance of creation as Nataraja or sound of cosmic force.
Also most of the devotional texts on Lord Murugan or Subramanian are in Tamil and references in the Ancient Tamil literature traces the origin of Lord Murugan to the Ancient Tamil country.[4]
Tamils consider their language itself as a goddess TamilThaai. She is worshiped by tamils all over the world. In Madurai, there is a temple for Goddess Tamil Thaai!.

that passage pretty much nails it for me. this has been my understanding of hinduism as practiced by tamilians for eternity. what non-tamilians seem to have a bit of a problem grasping is that the use of tamil in temple liturgy is not something that is being enforced at the behest of some political forces! not so. it has always been so, forever, since time immemorial. what the political forces have sought to do is inject controversy where none existed. and the non-tamilians with no understanding of tamil temple practice prior to the political controversy are looking at this through a purely political angle.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:Also the link from Adhan led me to liturgical language and I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_language#Hinduism wrote:Hinduism is traditionally considered to have two liturgical languages, Sanskrit and Tamil. Sanskrit is the language of the Vedas, Bhagavadgita, Puranas like Bhagavatham, and the Upanishads, and various other liturgical texts such as the Sahasranama, Chamakam and Rudram. It is also the tongue of most Hindu rituals.
Tamil is the language of the 12 Tirumurais (which consists of the great devotional hymns of Tevaram, Tiruvacakam etc.,) and the Naalaayira Divya Prabhandham (considered to be the essence of the Vedas, in Tamil, and all in praise of Lord Vishnu). These devotional hymns, which were sung in almost every Shiva and Vishnu temple of the South India, the then Tamil country and even North Indian temples like Badrinath Temple, are considered to be the basis for the Bhakti movement which saved Hinduism from extinction.[3]
The people following Kaumaram, Vainavam, Shaivam sects of South India and use Tamil as liturgical language along with Sanskrit. Divya Prabandha is chanted in most of the South Indian Vishnu temples like Tirupati.Indian literature . Dravidian people considered their language Tamil to be sacred and divine with equal status to Sanskrit within temple rituals, which is still being followed even by some temples in present day non-Tamil speaking areas. The divya prabhandams and Devarams are referred to as Dravida Vedam (Tamil Veda).
A long standing myth states that Sanskrit and Tamil emerged from either side of Lord Shiva's divine drum of creation as he danced the dance of creation as Nataraja or sound of cosmic force.
Also most of the devotional texts on Lord Murugan or Subramanian are in Tamil and references in the Ancient Tamil literature traces the origin of Lord Murugan to the Ancient Tamil country.[4]
Tamils consider their language itself as a goddess TamilThaai. She is worshiped by tamils all over the world. In Madurai, there is a temple for Goddess Tamil Thaai!.

that passage pretty much nails it for me. this has been my understanding of hinduism as practiced by tamilians for eternity. what non-tamilians seem to have a bit of a problem grasping is that the use of tamil in temple liturgy is not something that is being enforced at the behest of some political forces! not so. it has always been so, forever, since time immemorial. what the political forces have sought to do is inject controversy where none existed. and the non-tamilians with no understanding of tamil temple practice prior to the political controversy are looking at this through a purely political angle.

Are you claiming that the Dikshitars are non-Tamilians?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:Also the link from Adhan led me to liturgical language and I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_language#Hinduism wrote:Hinduism is traditionally considered to have two liturgical languages, Sanskrit and Tamil. Sanskrit is the language of the Vedas, Bhagavadgita, Puranas like Bhagavatham, and the Upanishads, and various other liturgical texts such as the Sahasranama, Chamakam and Rudram. It is also the tongue of most Hindu rituals.
Tamil is the language of the 12 Tirumurais (which consists of the great devotional hymns of Tevaram, Tiruvacakam etc.,) and the Naalaayira Divya Prabhandham (considered to be the essence of the Vedas, in Tamil, and all in praise of Lord Vishnu). These devotional hymns, which were sung in almost every Shiva and Vishnu temple of the South India, the then Tamil country and even North Indian temples like Badrinath Temple, are considered to be the basis for the Bhakti movement which saved Hinduism from extinction.[3]
The people following Kaumaram, Vainavam, Shaivam sects of South India and use Tamil as liturgical language along with Sanskrit. Divya Prabandha is chanted in most of the South Indian Vishnu temples like Tirupati.Indian literature . Dravidian people considered their language Tamil to be sacred and divine with equal status to Sanskrit within temple rituals, which is still being followed even by some temples in present day non-Tamil speaking areas. The divya prabhandams and Devarams are referred to as Dravida Vedam (Tamil Veda).
A long standing myth states that Sanskrit and Tamil emerged from either side of Lord Shiva's divine drum of creation as he danced the dance of creation as Nataraja or sound of cosmic force.
Also most of the devotional texts on Lord Murugan or Subramanian are in Tamil and references in the Ancient Tamil literature traces the origin of Lord Murugan to the Ancient Tamil country.[4]
Tamils consider their language itself as a goddess TamilThaai. She is worshiped by tamils all over the world. In Madurai, there is a temple for Goddess Tamil Thaai!.

that passage pretty much nails it for me. this has been my understanding of hinduism as practiced by tamilians for eternity. what non-tamilians seem to have a bit of a problem grasping is that the use of tamil in temple liturgy is not something that is being enforced at the behest of some political forces! not so. it has always been so, forever, since time immemorial. what the political forces have sought to do is inject controversy where none existed. and the non-tamilians with no understanding of tamil temple practice prior to the political controversy are looking at this through a purely political angle.

Are you claiming that the Dikshitars are non-Tamilians?

two points: they seem to have a very non-standard understanding of temple worship. two, i read elsewhere contrary to what you claimed, that they themselves recite the thirumurai during worship. i am not sure if this (the second point) is true or not.  the evidence is that the chidambaram temple is very central to the thirumurais as it is mentioned over and over again. it was also the original repository of the manuscripts which the dikshitars seemed to have let decay, but saved through the collaboration of raja rajan and nambiAndAn nambi. if the court has made this sort of a decree, we'll just have to accept it and move on. but everywhere else in TN this is not the practice. or maybe like you said, they do consider themselves kashmiris. i just don't know.