Re: swamy - Hindu temples to Hindus

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:00 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
3. There is a large statue of Vishnu in this temple. This is the only ancient Shiva temple in Tamil Nadu where there pride of place given to Vishnu. Even though the Vishnu idol is at a completely different angle and at some distance from the main Shiva idol there is a particular spot from which--if you are standing on this spot--you can see both the Vishnu and Shiva idols. I am informed that although Shaivites pray to both the Vishnu and Shiva idols, many Vaishnavites pray only to the Vishnu idol.

good to see you regurgitating information i had given you just last year.

the first person who gave me this information was Rishi and that was on sulekha.com.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:20 pm

it is sad to see people who are descended from the same clan as the peerless and most intellectual of the carnatic trinity, behave like common donkeys today. he would have been ashamed of them. of that i am sure.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:50 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is sad to see people who are descended from the same clan as the peerless and most intellectual of the carnatic trinity, behave like common donkeys today. he would have been ashamed of them. of that i am sure.

The practice of not allowing tamil prayers in the sanctum Santorum of the Chidambaram temple must have been in vogue in his time. One would imagine that he supported the practice since it is a centuries old practice (otherwise he would have raised his voice against the practice and we would have heard about it).

My theory is that the prayers in Sanskrit only have something to do with the fact that the Dikshitars were originally immigrants from North India, possibly Kashmir, and they have not forgotten this. A Kashmiri king is said to have constructed at least part of the Nataraja temple.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:53 pm

http://www.radha.name/holy-places-gallery/tamil-nadu/cidambaram-shiva-temple

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:58 pm

a different kind of chidambara dikshitar in the modern age (the non donkey kind of whom his forerunner muthuswamy would have been proud):

http://drvvsdeekshithar.com/drvvs.html

a tamil composition in abhogi by swarnavenkatesa dikshitar.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:02 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:a different kind of chidambara dikshitar in the modern age (the non donkey kind of whom his forerunner muthuswamy would have been proud):

http://drvvsdeekshithar.com/drvvs.html

a tamil composition in abhogi by swarnavenkatesa dikshitar.

How do u know this guy who is singing does not support the centuries old tradition of only sanskrit prayers being permitted in the sanctum Santorum of Chidambaram?

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:03 pm

Rashmun wrote:

How do u know this guy who is singing does not support the centuries old tradition of only sanskrit prayers being permitted in the sanctum Santorum of Chidambaram?

swarnavenkatesa dikshitar is the composer, not these young men who are singing. stop making stupid ass arguments and listen to the song. it's a beautiful composition and very well rendered. maybe you'll learn something. the song is about the cosmic dance of natarja. upon listening to this grand composition in tamil in which he vividly describes the dance, i don't see this composer being so small minded like you and the donkey dikshitars.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:16 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is sad to see people who are descended from the same clan as the peerless and most intellectual of the carnatic trinity, behave like common donkeys today. he would have been ashamed of them. of that i am sure.

The practice of not allowing tamil prayers in the sanctum Santorum of the Chidambaram temple must have been in vogue in his time. One would imagine that he supported the practice since it is a centuries old practice (otherwise he would have raised his voice against the practice and we would have heard about it).

My theory is that the prayers in Sanskrit only have something to do with the fact that the Dikshitars were originally immigrants from North India, possibly Kashmir, and they have not forgotten this. A Kashmiri king is said to have constructed at least part of the Nataraja temple.

Following up on what i wrote earlier, and taking into account the information available in http://www.radha.name/holy-places-gallery/tamil-nadu/cidambaram-shiva-temple , here is a working hypothesis for why only sanskrit is permitted in the sanctum sanctorum of this temple:

Assuming the story of the kashmiri king coming to take baths in the temple tank to cure his leperosy is correct, and also assuming that 3,000 priests had accompanied the kashmiri king in his travel from kashmir to chidambaram and that these 3,000 priests are the direct ancestors of the present day dikshitars, and assuming that the kashmiri king gave funding for extending the temple, and assuming that the kashmiri priests took over the management of the temple after the pouring of construction funds for the chidambaram temple by the kashmiri king, the tradition of reciting only sanskrit prayers in the sanctum sanctorum could go as far back as the kashmiri king. basically the local tamils forfeited the temple to the kashmiris after the kashmiri king poured funds into the temple and presumably also spread wealth in the local populace. the kashmiris established the practice of prayers in sanskrit which was their practice back in kashmir. the kashmiri king stayed on for some time and then went back to kashmir leaving his priests behind to look after the temple. these priests were experts in sanskrit but knew very little tamil. so they only performed pooja in sanskrit. the local populace encouraged the recital of the prayers in sanskrit because back then sanskrit was held in very high respect--much more than is the case today. after a few generations of the dikshitar priests performing pooja only in sanskrit, it became a religious dogma for them to only perform pooja in sanskrit and now they are very stubborn about this tradition.

This is the only reasonable explanation i can think of considering that the Dikshitars are doing something in direct opposition to the precedent set by Ramanuja in which both sanskrit and tamil are used to peform pooja of the idol in a temple.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:24 pm

Is cosmic dance of natarja tradition found in Vedic hinduism? Is it unique to Tamil tradition like "nettri kaN thiRappinum" or "pittukku maN sumantha"?

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:26 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:Is cosmic dance of natarja tradition found in Vedic hinduism? Is it unique to Tamil tradition like "nettri kaN thiRappinum" or "pittukku maN sumantha"?

The answer is Yes. Shiva has always been associated with dancing. For instance, he is well known amongst all hindus for having performed the Tandava dance.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:32 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:Is cosmic dance of natarja tradition found in Vedic hinduism? Is it unique to Tamil tradition like "nettri kaN thiRappinum" or "pittukku maN sumantha"?

i don't know, but it is beautifully incorporated in the many tamil compositions dedicated to the god of thillai, and finds copious mention in the thEvAram. i don't reject things just because it came from vEdic hinduism. what is important to me is how beautifully melded and poetically rendered in tamil these ideas have become over time. i also don't reject the symbiotic connections between sanskrit and tamil. but i do reject the small mindedness that seeks to minimize the importance of the tamil bhakti movement and the rich poetry that came out of it.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:53 pm

Actually, not just in TN, but also in other SI states as well, people sing in local languages in temples. The Sanskrit verses are just a small component of the worship ritual. There is a lot more bhakti associated with the recitals in local languages.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:55 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Actually, not just in TN, but also in other SI states as well, people sing in local languages in temples. The Sanskrit verses are just a small component of the worship ritual. There is a lot more bhakti associated with the recitals in local languages.

How do you reconcile what you wrote above with what you wrote earlier in this thread:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Mantras in local language -

This experiment was tried in a small temple in AP in the past (by Potuluri Veerabrahmam).

He translated "mantrapushpam" into colloquial Telugu and recited after nitya pooja.

The average folks, who used to listen to priests reciting the Sanskrit version, were very disappointed (as they could understand the meaning and weren't impressed with it).

These days in TN, may be, the average folks are also getting disappointed with the meaning when the Tamil version is recited and are, hence, becoming DKheads.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:09 pm

speaking as an insider in the tambrahm culture -- until the modern era for most of us there never was any conflict between sanskritic liturgy and tamil worship especially in recited poetry and more importantly, music. many tambrahms have contributed to this body of poetry and music since the 7th century. the recent DK movement which sought to alienate tambrahms from TN sowed the seeds for the conflict of the type in which the donkey dikshitars (henceforth shortened to DDs) of chidambaram were embroiled. many tambrahms of a certain age behave much like these DDs. and in the modern information age, the DK idiots have been joined by a few non-tamils of the rashmun kind who take a special joy in highlighting this sort of conflict on the internet. the DDs have become unwitting pawns in this game.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:30 pm

an interesting article on the extraordinary Dikshitars of Chidambaram:

http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2011/08/05/the-chidambaram-temple-and-the-podu-dikshitars-t-r-ramesh/

Lots of details about how the Chidambaram temple is the personal property of the Dikshitars and how they have taken good care of the temple down the ages.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:34 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:speaking as an insider in the tambrahm culture -- until the modern era for most of us there never was any conflict between sanskritic liturgy and tamil worship especially in recited poetry and more importantly, music. many tambrahms have contributed to this body of poetry and music since the 7th century. the recent DK movement which sought to alienate tambrahms from TN sowed the seeds for the conflict of the type in which the donkey dikshitars (henceforth shortened to DDs) of chidambaram were embroiled. many tambrahms of a certain age behave much like these DDs. and in the modern information age, the DK idiots have been joined by a few non-tamils of the rashmun kind who take a special joy in highlighting this sort of conflict on the internet. the DDs have become unwitting pawns in this game.

the conflict is out in the open for everyone to see. why try to brush it under the carpet? let it out into the sunlight.

----

The Supreme Court verdict has brought cheers to the Podhu Dikshitars and devotees.

They celebrated the verdict by bursting firecrackers on the outer prahara of the temple. As the news of the judgment started trickling in, the Dikshitars assembled in front of the temple to congratulate each other on the turn of event. Nagaswaram and thavil vidwans recited “Mallari” raagam, usually performed when the presiding deity is being taken out in a procession. Secretary of the Podhu Dikshitars’ Association Kasiraja Dikshitar, summing up the essence of the judgment in a single sentence and their reaction, told The Hindu that “Lord Nataraja has bestowed the victory upon the Dikshitars.”

Agitation

State coordinator of the Manitha Urimai Padhukappu Maiyam Raju and 60 of its members courted arrest by holding an agitation against the verdict. Mr. Raju said that only through passing special legislation “linguistic untouchability and caste untouchability” prevalent in the temple could be eradicated.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-miscellaneous/tp-others/dikshitars-feel-happy/article5547643.ece

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:39 pm

should we discuss in the sunlight how the up hindus and muslims like to beat each other up from time to time? i have seen you express irritation when i've brought up the babri masjid.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:43 pm

for the record not all tambrahms agree with the DDs. i for one don't support them.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:49 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:should we discuss in the sunlight how the up hindus and muslims like to beat each other up from time to time? i have seen you express irritation when i've brought up the babri masjid.

the babari masjid riots and also the muzzaffarnagar riots were artificially engineered. for instance, in muzzaffarnagar the hindus and muslims who were confronting each other were the same people who had remained united during partition. the trouble was artificially started after a BJP MLA downloaded an internet clip of a youth getting thrashed in pakistan and started circulating it in the region with the claim that this was a hindu young man being thrashed by muslims. and then trouble started. Similarly the Babari masjid violence was also artificially engineered as were the Gujarat riots which could easily have been controlled but which were effectively a pogrom.

But in the case of Chidambaram it is not an artificially engineered problem. It is a genuine problem: do you go with a centuries old tradition, or do you go with a drastic reform and consequent breakage from tradition? If we agree that local tamils surrendered control of the temple to Kashmiris then it is analogous to Russia surrendering control of Alaska to US in lieu of monetary compensation. Otherwise why was the Kashmiri king allowed to make significant renovations and extensions to the original temple and then further allowed to have his 3,000 kashmiri priests take over the temple management? Since the Dikshitars effectively own the temple their claim is that they get to make the rules.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:09 am

>> do you go with a centuries old tradition, or do you go with a drastic reform and consequent breakage from tradition?

It was age old tradition to burn widows live. When British banned it, some people went to the British governor and said it is our tradition. He replied it is our tradition to hange people who burn others live.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:10 am

I read it on facebook that sivan is not mentioned in rig veda. True or false?

by Guest Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:14 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:>> do you go with a centuries old tradition, or do you go with a drastic reform and consequent breakage from tradition?

It was age old tradition to burn widows live. When British banned it, some people went to the British governor and said it is our tradition. He replied it is our tradition to hange people who burn others live.

some traditions are unacceptable for instance cannibalism. any tradition which involves inflicting physical violence on others or killing others is clearly unacceptable. But to say that all traditions are unacceptable would itself be unacceptable.

by Guest Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:15 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:I read it on facebook that sivan is not mentioned in rig veda. True or false?

false. He is referred to in Rig Veda as Rudra which is another name of his.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:28 am

>> false. He is referred to in Rig Veda as Rudra

I know thar rudra is mentioned in Rig Veda. Then your ancestors falsely claimed that rudra is the sivan mentioned in Tamil lit. THere is nothing stated in rig veda that gives any credence that udra is sivan. None of the orginal attributes or stories mentioned in Tamil lit are attributed to rudra.

by Guest Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:37 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:>> false. He is referred to in Rig Veda as Rudra

I know thar rudra is mentioned in Rig Veda. Then your ancestors falsely claimed that rudra is the sivan mentioned in Tamil lit. THere is nothing stated in rig veda that gives any credence that udra is sivan. None of the orginal attributes or stories mentioned in Tamil lit are attributed to rudra.

in fact Rudra's attributes and characteristics have a 100% match with Shiva in both tamil literature and also in the subsequent sanskrit literature. you clearly have very little knowledge of hinduism. This is understandable since you have spent most of your time fighting and conspiring instead of doing any serious study.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:52 am

>>> in fact Rudra's attributes and characteristics have a 100% match with Shiva in both tamil literature

List 3 attributes from rig Veda and the corresponding reference in OLD Tamil lit.

by Guest Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:09 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:>>> in fact Rudra's attributes and characteristics have a 100% match with Shiva in both tamil literature

List 3 attributes from rig Veda and the corresponding reference in OLD Tamil lit.

i don't have to do that. ALL traditional scholars of hindu philosophy including ALL tamil scholars of hindu philosophy (like Ramanuja, Vedanta Desika, and Chandrasekharendra Saraswati) have identified Shiva with Rudra. There is zero controversy on this issue. That is enough for me. Since you are the one putting forward a bizarre hypothesis the onus is on you to come up with facets of Rudra in Rig Veda which contradict how he is represented in old tamil literature. Moreover you will have to show why your conclusions are correct while the conclusion of Ramanuja and others on this issue are incorrect and unacceptable. Hopefully this exercise will keep you busy for a long time and ensure that you stay out of trouble.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:18 am

>> I don't have to do that.

Because you cannot. CASE CLOSED. Rudra is not Sivan.

by Guest Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:28 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:>> I don't have to do that.

Because you cannot. CASE CLOSED. Rudra is not Sivan.

I gave three names of renowned hindu scholars from Tamil Nadu who agree that Rudra = Shiva: Ramanuja, Vedanta Desika, Chandrashekarendra Saraswati. You are unable to give me a single name of any traditional hindu scholar who says what you are saying (Rudra is not Shiva). Case closed. Rudra = Shiva.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:34 am

>> I gave three names of renowned hindu scholars from Tamil Nadu who agree that Rudra = Shiva: Ramanuja, Vedanta Desika, Chandrashekarendra Saraswati.

epporul yaar yaar vai kedpinum- apporul
meiporul kanpatharivu - Kural

(Whatever you hear from whoever, finding thye truth is wisdom - Kural)

by Kris Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:38 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:>> I gave three names of renowned hindu scholars from Tamil Nadu who agree that Rudra = Shiva: Ramanuja, Vedanta Desika, Chandrashekarendra Saraswati.

epporul yaar yaar vai kedpinum- apporul
meiporul kanpatharivu - Kural

(Whatever you hear from whoever, finding thye truth is wisdom - Kural)

>>>Why do you forget to make spelling mistakes in some of your posts? It compromises your objective of keeping your avatars distinct. You may want to watch that slippage.

by Guest Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:39 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:>> I gave three names of renowned hindu scholars from Tamil Nadu who agree that Rudra = Shiva: Ramanuja, Vedanta Desika, Chandrashekarendra Saraswati.

epporul yaar yaar vai kedpinum- apporul
meiporul kanpatharivu - Kural

(Whatever you hear from whoever, finding thye truth is wisdom - Kural)

in Indian logic, which is accepted by all traditional tamil scholars of hindu philosophy, there are three sources of valid knowledge: perception, inference, and the verbal testimony of authoritative people. I have the verbal testimony of authoritative people to back up my contention while you have nothing to show to back up your contention.
Conclusion: Rudra = Shiva. Case closed.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:26 am

Rashmun:

There is no contradiction. One is a translation (basically an attempt) from archaic Sanskrit and the other, originally composed in the local language.

The average folks (including sikular minds and DKheads that are not exposed to real Vedanta) will have trouble understanding/appreciating the translated one but can easily follow and have a feel for the one composed in the local language.

Re: your response to Kayar Vizhi - For LTTE followers, Rudra is either butcher Prabhakaran or the Semitic "God" who orders people around from the sky, not the naked cave man in Tibetan mountains.

by Hellsangel Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:48 am

Kris wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> I gave three names of renowned hindu scholars from Tamil Nadu who agree that Rudra = Shiva: Ramanuja, Vedanta Desika, Chandrashekarendra Saraswati.

epporul yaar yaar vai kedpinum- apporul
meiporul kanpatharivu - Kural

(Whatever you hear from whoever, finding thye truth is wisdom - Kural)

>>>Why do you forget to make spelling mistakes in some of your posts? It compromises your objective of keeping your avatars distinct. You may want to watch that slippage.

Trollus has been down that slippery slope for a while now.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:26 am

Hellsangel wrote:
Kris wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> I gave three names of renowned hindu scholars from Tamil Nadu who agree that Rudra = Shiva: Ramanuja, Vedanta Desika, Chandrashekarendra Saraswati.

epporul yaar yaar vai kedpinum- apporul
meiporul kanpatharivu - Kural

(Whatever you hear from whoever, finding thye truth is wisdom - Kural)

>>>Why do you forget to make spelling mistakes in some of your posts? It compromises your objective of keeping your avatars distinct. You may want to watch that slippage.
Trollus has been down that slippery slope for a while now.

Yes...the slippage started almost a year ago when KV - in anger - responded with a 5 line post with not a single typo or grammatical mistake.

Even Commander Pirabhakilleran began to slip at some point.

by Rishi Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:32 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Yes...the slippage started almost a year ago when KV - in anger - responded with a 5 line post with not a single typo or grammatical mistake.

Even Commander Pirabhakilleran began to slip at some point.

>>>KV is certainly not Max.

Who do you think he/she could be?

How many Tamil posters are here?

by smArtha Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:52 am

Rishi wrote:Rashmun,

A lot of TN brahmin priests who recite Sanskrit mantras do by rote. They do not know what exactly these mantras mean. Because they are not well versed in Sanskrit.

FYI, in mantras meaning is of secondary importance and the sound/intonation/intensity and the vibrations/energy it generates is the primary. This is the reason why we cannot translate it to similar meaning verse in another language and expect the same benefits. In temples like Chidambaram where enormous work of consecration has happened to invoke and install energy of higher intensity and the centuries of strictly adhered processes/chants to upkeep it, changing the processes/chants can even result in negative/uninteneded consequences. A temple, if established with right processes, is not a church or a mosque as in a place of worship. It is place to receive and for people to receive there should have been something put in during consecration and maintained with due processes/rituals/chants. In the absence of these a temple is as good as any random idol/photo we can procure from a shop and pray to.

by Rishi Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:04 am

smArtha wrote:
Rishi wrote:Rashmun,

A lot of TN brahmin priests who recite Sanskrit mantras do by rote. They do not know what exactly these mantras mean. Because they are not well versed in Sanskrit.

FYI, in mantras meaning is of secondary importance and the sound/intonation/intensity and the vibrations/energy it generates is the primary. This is the reason why we cannot translate it to similar meaning verse in another language and expect the same benefits. In temples like Chidambaram where enormous work of consecration has happened to invoke and install energy of higher intensity and the centuries of strictly adhered processes/chants to upkeep it, changing the processes/chants can even result in negative/uninteneded consequences. A temple, if established with right processes, is not a church or a mosque as in a place of worship. It is place to receive and for people to receive there should have been something put in during consecration and maintained with due processes/rituals/chants. In the absence of these a temple is as good as any random idol/photo we can procure from a shop and pray to.

>>>Smartha

There is no need to translate.

Tamils can come up with their own mantras, slokas and bhajans in their own language. I think they already have. One of the complainta from non-brahmin community in TN is that they do not understand what the priest is saying when he chants all the Sanskrit mantras during marriage, worship etc.,

All I am saying is this: If we give atleast equal space to both Sanskrit and Tamil then that will put a blunt on the proselytization efforts by the Christian missionaries.

by smArtha Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:17 am

Rishi wrote:There is no ned to translate.

Tamils can come up with their own mantras, slokas and bhajans in their own language. I think they already have. One of the complainta from non-brahmin community in TN is that they do not understand what the priest is saying when he chants all the Sanskrit mantras during marriage, worship etc.,

All I am saying is this: If we give atleast equal space to both Sanskrit and Tamil then that will put a blunt on the proselytization efforts by the Christian missionaries.

I'm not sure what the specifics of disputes in TN are. There are temples which are consecrated with due process - yOgic/tAntrik/mAntrik/vaidika means and the rituals/chants/procedures there need to follow what was established at the time of such consecration and followed so far. As mentioned earlier, non-adherence to such established processes can have negative impact in the vicinity of temple as well as those visiting it. However, there are temples that came up in the last couple of hundred years that didn't necessarily go through such careful consecrations or even new temples that people may build now or in future to suit their own community/locale or whatever reasons. They can establish their own 'suitable' rituals/chants there. Chanting our own made up chants/verses at a Ganesh Pandal put up in the colony is vastly different from trying to make that a ritual in a temple like the one at Chidambaram.

by Hellsangel Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:29 am

Rishi wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Yes...the slippage started almost a year ago when KV - in anger - responded with a 5 line post with not a single typo or grammatical mistake.

Even Commander Pirabhakilleran began to slip at some point.

>>>KV is certainly not Max.

Who do you think he/she could be?

How many Tamil posters are here?

What do you think, Papi?

by Rishi Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:37 am

Hellsangel wrote:
Rishi wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Yes...the slippage started almost a year ago when KV - in anger - responded with a 5 line post with not a single typo or grammatical mistake.

Even Commander Pirabhakilleran began to slip at some point.

>>>KV is certainly not Max.

Who do you think he/she could be?

How many Tamil posters are here?

HA
It could be you.

What do you think, Papi?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:37 pm

smArtha wrote: They can establish their own 'suitable' rituals/chants there. Chanting our own made up chants/verses at a Ganesh Pandal put up in the colony is vastly different from trying to make that a ritual in a temple like the one at Chidambaram.

here is the cardinal mistake you are making which i suspect comes from your background which is smArthA (i share your background) -- extrapolating what you know as the general practice as something that happens everywhere. contrary to our (smArthA) traditions, the sri vaishnavites (aka iyengars) consider the compendium of tamil bhakti poetry known as the nAlAyira divya prabhandam as equal to the vedas. they even say so quite plainly. see here: http://ramanuja.org/sv/prabandham/

The Divya Prabandham is the collective corpus of the passionate hymns of the Alvar mystics (5th-8th centuries A.D.). It was the scholar-saint Nathamuni who, in the 10th century, retrieved and compiled this bhakti treasure which is the pride of Tamil classical literature. The Sri Vaishnava guru parampara (inheritance order of the preceptors) is held to commence from Lord Sri Narayana himself, and to centre, rightly so, around Sri Nathamuni and his grandson Sri Yamuna. The Alvars represented all the caste-groups of the society and their works enjoy the status of "dravida" or Tamil Veda, on par with the "girvaana" Veda in pre-Panini Sanskrit. The Divya Prabandham is in the form of adoration of the deities of 108 temples (divya desams) situated in different parts of the country, and employs every form of poetics (aNi) and prosody (chandam) available in Tamil.

so in temples like sri rangam, the parthasarathy kovil in chennai, and in the uppiliyappan temple (all ancient consecrated temples), reciting of the nAlayira divya prabhandams is of equal importance to the sanskritic mantras that are used to perform kAla pUjais and are undertaken by the brahmin priests also. in fact this happens every single day, not some special occasion.

in the saivite tradition it is a little different and the tamil saivite bhakti poetry recitation in TN temples is not usually by the priests, but by a separate group of people known as OduvArs.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:43 pm

btw, much like the dikshitars who claim to be descended from shivA, the sri vaishnavite jeeyars claim direct descent from nArAyaNA.

by smArtha Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:22 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:here is the cardinal mistake you are making which i suspect comes from your background which is smArthA (i share your background) -- extrapolating what you know as the general practice as something that happens everywhere. contrary to our (smArthA) traditions, the sri vaishnavites (aka iyengars) consider the compendium of tamil bhakti poetry known as the nAlAyira divya prabhandam as equal to the vedas. they even say so quite plainly. see here: http://ramanuja.org/sv/prabandham/

so in temples like sri rangam, the parthasarathy kovil in chennai, and in the uppiliyappan temple (all ancient consecrated temples), reciting of the nAlayira divya prabhandams is of equal importance to the sanskritic mantras that are used to perform kAla pUjais and are undertaken by the brahmin priests also. in fact this happens every single day, not some special occasion.

I'm aware of the tamil canons you are talking about. I didn't say that the chants have to be in Sanskrit only, just that whatever was the established practice at the time of consecration and followed till date has to continue. The temples where Tevaram or Divya Prabandham is being chanted should continue that. The idea here is to respect and honor the practices laid out by the siddhas/saints/rishis whoever were instrumental in the consecration/re-consecration of the divine form there. They had installed/invoked the specific energy into the divine form and they cannot go wrong in the processes to upkeep that energy. We don't need to adulterate them with our contemporary preferences.

by Guest Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:33 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is sad to see people who are descended from the same clan as the peerless and most intellectual of the carnatic trinity, behave like common donkeys today. he would have been ashamed of them. of that i am sure.

Weren't Muthuswami Deekshitar's compositions predominently in Sanskrit? As an Advaitin, he'd be ashamed to see language fanaticism making inroads even into ancient temples.
Let temples follow their centuries long tradition. If the mantras have been recited in Sanskrit, let them continue to be so. If in Tamil, let them continue in tamil. What's the problem?

It is not in good taste to call the priests who want to continue the temple tradition as donkeys. This is an example that shows that fanaticism breeds contempt and intolerance. Calm down!

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:36 pm

Kinnera wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is sad to see people who are descended from the same clan as the peerless and most intellectual of the carnatic trinity, behave like common donkeys today. he would have been ashamed of them. of that i am sure.
Weren't Muthuswami Deekshitar's compositions predominently in Sanskrit? As an Advaitin, he'd be ashamed to see language fanaticism making inroads even into ancient temples.
Let temples follow their centuries long tradition. If the mantras have been recited in Sanskrit, let them continue to do so. If in Tamil, let them continue in tamil. What's the problem?

It is not in good taste to call the priests who want to continue the temple tradition as donkeys. This is an example that shows that fanaticism breeds contempt and intolerance. Calm down!

i stand by what i said. sanskrit and tamil have both been equal in tambrahm culture. this minority of folks who deny that truth deserve to be called what i called them. the language fanatic here madam is not me. i never stopped or ask to stop sanskrit liturgy from taking a central role in temple worship. however, these DDs want tamil banned from the temple.

by Guest Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:41 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kinnera wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is sad to see people who are descended from the same clan as the peerless and most intellectual of the carnatic trinity, behave like common donkeys today. he would have been ashamed of them. of that i am sure.
Weren't Muthuswami Deekshitar's compositions predominently in Sanskrit? As an Advaitin, he'd be ashamed to see language fanaticism making inroads even into ancient temples.
Let temples follow their centuries long tradition. If the mantras have been recited in Sanskrit, let them continue to do so. If in Tamil, let them continue in tamil. What's the problem?

It is not in good taste to call the priests who want to continue the temple tradition as donkeys. This is an example that shows that fanaticism breeds contempt and intolerance. Calm down!

i stand by what i said. sanskrit and tamil have both been equal in tambrahm culture. this minority of folks who deny that truth deserve to be called what i called them. the language fanatic here madam is not me. i never stopped or ask to stop sanskrit liturgy from taking a central role in temple worship. however, these DDs want tamil banned from the temple.

If tamil chants weren't recited previously, then why should the new tradition start? If it's been a tradition to recite tamil chants for centuries, but now the priests want them to be banned, then there is a problem. If it's a new thing that's being imposed and the priests are resisting it, then all power to them. They are not donkeys. The others who are trying to impose and the ones supporting that are.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:54 pm

the simple truth is i just don't believe the chidambara dikshitars. i'd like a disinterested party that is comprised of proper historians that are neither from the dikshitar community nor the oduvar community to do some historical research. the reason i say that is that everywhere in TN the norm is that tamil bhakti poetry takes a central role in temple worship in addition to sanskrit liturgy. i find the explanations about the kashmiri king etc. thoroughly unconvincing. on the other side of the controversy is the undeniable fact that there are so many beautiful thevAra paNNs about chidambaram, many of which were composed by tamil brahmins! they couldn't have been composed in a complete vacuum.

by Guest Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:09 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the simple truth is i just don't believe the chidambara dikshitars. i'd like a disinterested party that is comprised of proper historians that are neither from the dikshitar community nor the oduvar community to do some historical research. the reason i say that is that everywhere in TN the norm is that tamil bhakti poetry takes a central role in temple worship in addition to sanskrit liturgy. i find the explanations about the kashmiri king etc. thoroughly unconvincing. on the other side of the controversy is the undeniable fact that there are so many beautiful thevAra paNNs about chidambaram, many of which were composed by tamil brahmins! they couldn't have been composed in a complete vacuum.

Hinduism thrived on one main thing: parampara, the guru-sishya parampara or other forms of parampara-the handing over of traditions from one generation to another. The vedas, without even a written text, have been preserved and passed on in the same fashion for thousands of years. Brahmins, esp priests, are sticklers for hanging on to tradition and rightfully so. If tamil verses are not chanted currently in some temples, then they have never been chanted there. No one you would've dared change that tradition.

Believe what you want to believe, if it satisfies your mindset.

I am outta this thread. I have nothing more to add.

by FluteHolder Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:11 pm

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