A question for (male)Tamils with patronymic surnames

by Hellsangel Fri May 30, 2014 3:25 pm

Do you now use your first name as the last name for your kids or do you just stick with giving them your last name as their last name?

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri May 30, 2014 9:35 pm

In Tamilnadu due to Dravidian movement, caste name as surname practice got thrown out. We used initials in school (first letter of father's name). In application forms where last name was required typical practice is to use father's first name.

Only for kids born outside of TN this issue crops up. I wanted to retain my father's name as family name and gave that as the last name for my kids.

by truthbetold Fri May 30, 2014 9:40 pm

Is the fathers name as family name practice followed by different castes and economic sections of TN society? or is it limited to brahmins or forward castes or middle classes?

I heard of chettiars, mudaliars, naidus and rarely Iyers. how come these people escape the waves of change?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri May 30, 2014 10:03 pm

truthbetold wrote:Is the fathers name as family name practice followed by different castes and economic sections of TN society? or is it limited to brahmins or forward castes or middle classes?

I heard of chettiars, mudaliars, naidus and rarely Iyers. how come these people escape the waves of change?

in an earlier post you asked why i set store by english. i don't necessarily set store by english, but by clear communication. the bolded sentence in your post is an example of a garbled sentence. i don't know what it means.

which of the following did you mean?

(a) you've heard of chettiars, mudaliars, and naidus ditching their caste names and using patronymic last names, but not iyers.
(b) the opposite of (a)
(c) something else altogether.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri May 30, 2014 11:02 pm

I kept my last name "Goundar" which is easy to pronounce (like counter). To hell with the pseudo-secular fashion of dropping caste names.

by Ponniyin Selvan Sat May 31, 2014 12:17 am

truthbetold wrote:Is the fathers name as family name practice followed by different castes and economic sections of TN society? or is it limited to brahmins or forward castes or middle classes?

I heard of chettiars, mudaliars, naidus and rarely Iyers. how come these people escape the waves of change?

This father's name as last name is followed by everyone regardless of caste in TN. People who had grown up outside TN may have caste names as surnames. It is very rare to see someone with a caste name as surname now.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 31, 2014 4:44 am

yes it"s a fairly good bet that a person with the last name iyer was raised outside TN.

by truthbetold Sat May 31, 2014 5:49 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Is the fathers name as family name practice followed by different castes and economic sections of TN society? or is it limited to brahmins or forward castes or middle classes?

I heard of chettiars, mudaliars, naidus and rarely Iyers. how come these people escape the waves of change?

This father's name as last name is followed by everyone regardless of caste in TN. People who had grown up outside TN may have caste names as surnames. It is very rare to see someone with a caste name as surname now.

Thanks, PS. I learned something new (I suspected it but was never sure).

by truthbetold Sat May 31, 2014 6:02 am

Max,

You are what we refer to as proper brahmin (Iyer) boy. Properly raised. You cannot tolerate a strand of hair being out of place.

Your upbringing conditioned you to be a closed mind.

You hold grudges. You have a problem in dealing with people who hold a POV different than yours.

When your arguments fail to make an impression, you tend to look for other silly diversionary issues to prove your superiority over the other person.

You and I will never be able to communicate well. I can assure you the reasons go beyond English.

by Merlot Daruwala Sat May 31, 2014 8:02 am

truthbetold wrote:Max,

You are what we refer to as proper brahmin (Iyer) boy. Properly raised. You cannot tolerate a strand of hair being out of place.

Your upbringing conditioned you to be a closed mind.

You hold grudges. You have a problem in dealing with people who hold a POV different than yours.

When your arguments fail to make an impression, you tend to look for other silly diversionary issues to prove your superiority over the other person.

You and I will never be able to communicate well. I can assure you the reasons go beyond English.

Wow. A 500 word psychoanalytical essay on being called out on an especially incoherent sentence! No need to be so sensitive, TBT.

by Maria S Sat May 31, 2014 8:06 am

Tamil pengal are people too.. I could have added something valuable to this conversation! After all, our Tamil angal are closely connected to us:)

All in good fun..carry on!

by Maria S Sat May 31, 2014 8:30 am

I have some time..so why not!

*Just read TBT's comments. Naidus, are not typically surnames- related to caste identity of Tamilians. They are/roots are from the old AP.

Speaking of which, am sure you all know, like I do- women who still use Naidu, Chettiyar, Iyer, Rao, Reddy and many other Indian "group identity" (may or may not be caste or subcaste) surnames. Of course, women using - Singh and Patel is far more common!

by Hellsangel Sat May 31, 2014 10:05 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:In Tamilnadu due to Dravidian movement, caste name as surname practice got thrown out. We used initials in school (first letter of father's name). In application forms where last name was required typical practice is to use father's first name.

Only for kids born outside of TN this issue crops up. I wanted to retain my father's name as family name and gave that as the last name for my kids.

That was my original question. Is this a common practice now?

I know Tamil families (husband, wife and kid) where the wife has kept her maiden name and the kid's last name is the dad's first name. As a result, all 3 have different last names.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 31, 2014 10:45 am

two last names and three last names in a family are both common.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 31, 2014 10:47 am

i like the icelandic convention.

by Kris Sat May 31, 2014 10:50 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:In Tamilnadu due to Dravidian movement, caste name as surname practice got thrown out. We used initials in school (first letter of father's name). In application forms where last name was required typical practice is to use father's first name.

Only for kids born outside of TN this issue crops up. I wanted to retain my father's name as family name and gave that as the last name for my kids.

>>>I thought it was even a generation before that, in response to Gandhi's call for the elimination of caste-based identification. In our family, my grandfathers were the last ones to use it. The format was the first letter of the father's given name, followed by the name of the person followed by the caste name. I found some info on my grandfather on the internet under this name format, but my grandmother was referred to by her first name and 'ammal' as her second name rather than any caste name. This was in a British document. So I assume this was her official name. Another curiosity at least in our family is that on the paternal side, my grandfather is the only who used 'Iyer'. His ancestors to the extent I know used Shastri. Some also used Sharma. Shastri seems more driven by their occupation than the strictly caste-based identification, although that is self-evident. Among Brahmins in states other than TN, the gotra is also used i.e. Bharadwaj, Atreya, Mudgil (from Maudgalya) as the family name, which is along the lines of western family names. In religious rituals the gotra refers to the family name, even in TN.

by Hellsangel Sat May 31, 2014 10:52 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:two last names and three last names in a family are both common.

Two last names is pretty common where the wife retains her maiden name.

Three last names is unusual.

by Kris Sat May 31, 2014 10:59 am

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:two last names and three last names in a family are both common.

Two last names is pretty common where the wife retains her maiden name.

Three last names is unusual.

>>>I think the concept of referring to some one as so and so's son - Peter's son, Robert's son- probably froze at some in point in resulting in Peterson, Robertson etc, except among the Vikings who settled Iceland who continued the tradition.

by Hellsangel Sat May 31, 2014 11:00 am

Kris wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:two last names and three last names in a family are both common.

Two last names is pretty common where the wife retains her maiden name.

Three last names is unusual.

>>>I think the concept of referring to some one as so and so's son - Peter's son, Robert's son- probably froze at some in point in resulting in Peterson, Robertson etc, except among the Vikings who continued the tradition.

Russians use both a patronym and a last name.

Oleg Igorovich Burov.

Igorovich = Son of Igor

by Kris Sat May 31, 2014 11:06 am

Hellsangel wrote:
Kris wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:two last names and three last names in a family are both common.

Two last names is pretty common where the wife retains her maiden name.

Three last names is unusual.

>>>I think the concept of referring to some one as so and so's son - Peter's son, Robert's son- probably froze at some in point in resulting in Peterson, Robertson etc, except among the Vikings who continued the tradition.

Russians use both a patronym and a last name.

Oleg Igorovich Burov.

Igorovich = Son of Igor

>>> Yeah. Two things throw me off with Russian nomenclature. One is the custom of referring to someone with their patronymic like 'Mikhail Vladimirovich' and the variation by gender as in Mikhail Gorbachev/ Raisa Gorbacheva.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat May 31, 2014 12:34 pm

Kris wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Kris wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:two last names and three last names in a family are both common.

Two last names is pretty common where the wife retains her maiden name.

Three last names is unusual.

>>>I think the concept of referring to some one as so and so's son - Peter's son, Robert's son- probably froze at some in point in resulting in Peterson, Robertson etc, except among the Vikings who continued the tradition.

Russians use both a patronym and a last name.

Oleg Igorovich Burov.

Igorovich = Son of Igor

>>> Yeah. Two things throw me off with Russian nomenclature. One is the custom of referring to someone with their patronymic like 'Mikhail Vladimirovich' and the variation by gender as in Mikhail Gorbachev/ Raisa Gorbacheva.

High time this tradition is outlawed. This is so sexist.

What abut Daughter of perter or Robert?

What about son of Cheryl or Daughter of Nicole.

After all, even the Birthcertificates ask only for Mother's name these days. So in 100 years no one will know one's father's name.

by b_A Sat May 31, 2014 3:45 pm

Gujaratis use the father's name as middle name. So their names are in the format Firstname Fathersfirstname Commonname. Since most of these are very common names , there will always be multiple people with the same name.
One of my Gujju colleague (say Bhupen Patel) once when he examined the paycheck, found that Gym membership fee was being deducted from his past 6,7 months of paychecks when he was not even a member of the Gym. Upon investigation,he found that there is another Bhupen Patel working in the same office and the other guy's membership fee is being deducted from his paycheck.
And he used to joke that whenever he goes on a cruise, there will be 20 other Bhupen patels on the same ship with 5-6 fellows with even the same middle name.

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