Telangana Telugu an offshoot of Dakhni?

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:so it's only a problem if someone else other than you mentions these things. nice.

My ultimate goal when i mention these things is to unite, and not to divide. It bothers me when i see anyone mentioning these things with the goal of dividing, and not uniting. I have never liked any cliques based on religion or region or caste.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

These people need to be told that Telugu is in the Central Group of Dravidian languages in which neither Tamil, Kannada, nor Malayalam are placed. If they must claim kinship based on language then they should first do so with people residing in north india and central india whose first language is Gondi, Konda, Kui, Manda, or some of the other languages in the Central Group of dravidian languages in which Telugu is placed.

that's idiotic. it displays your absolute ignorance of the mutual history of telugus and tamils. telugus and tamils have many cultural ties that go beyond just language. madras has vast numbers of telugus who for all intents and purposes are tamils outside their homes. telugus and tamils share a deep affection for carnatic music. for millenia tamil vocalists have been singing the telugu krithis of thyagaraja and annamacharya. patnam subramania iyer, a tamilian primarily composed carnatic krithis in telugu. the best known krithis of shyama shastri, a tamilian are all in telugu. and it pleases me no end that the stigma attached to singing tamil krithis on the carnatic concert platform is now firmly a thing of the past. telugu vocalists like malladi brothers, hyderabad brothers and balamurali krishna regularly feature tamil krithis in their concerts.

Telugus also have cultural ties with north indians and central Indians. for instance, telugu grammarians formulated their rules of grammar on the basis of Panini's sanskrit grammar. Panini was from north-west India.

Then Telugus have their own translations of North Indian religious works. For instance, the Telugu translation of Tulsidas's Hanuman Chalisa. Most religious Telugus who are Hindus chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly as part of their prayers. Religious Hindus in North India also chant Hanuman Chalisa regularly. This is only one example of the cultural bond existing between North Indians and Telugus.

As of today, two Telugus (film actress Jaya Prada and cricketer Azaharuddin) are Lok Sabha Member of parliaments elected from Uttar Pradesh.

If Tamils and Telugus had been living in complete harmony then there would have been no demand for separate statehood for Andhra.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:
Who is more venerated by Telugus--Kattabomman or Hanuman? The fact that religious Telugus who are Hindus venerate Hanuman just as religious Hindus of North India venerate Hanuman is another example of the cultural bond between Telugus and North Indians.

just re-read this and burst out laughing. what kind of a crazy ass comparison is this? one is a character from religious mythology venerated by all hindus, and other was a local chieftain who is credited with waging the first war of independence against a foreign power. you are so childish.

charvaka wrote:
I don't know if I have mentioned this before, but in the rAmAlayam in the small town in the heart of Telangana where some of my relatives live, Tiruppavai is sung, and a shrine to AndALamma is frequented by women.

doofus_maximus wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

These people need to be told that Telugu is in the Central Group of Dravidian languages in which neither Tamil, Kannada, nor Malayalam are placed. If they must claim kinship based on language then they should first do so with people residing in north india and central india whose first language is Gondi, Konda, Kui, Manda, or some of the other languages in the Central Group of dravidian languages in which Telugu is placed.

that's idiotic. it displays your absolute ignorance of the mutual history of telugus and tamils. telugus and tamils have many cultural ties that go beyond just language. madras has vast numbers of telugus who for all intents and purposes are tamils outside their homes. telugus and tamils share a deep affection for carnatic music. for millenia tamil vocalists have been singing the telugu krithis of thyagaraja and annamacharya. patnam subramania iyer, a tamilian primarily composed carnatic krithis in telugu. the best known krithis of shyama shastri, a tamilian are all in telugu. and it pleases me no end that the stigma attached to singing tamil krithis on the carnatic concert platform is now firmly a thing of the past. telugu vocalists like malladi brothers, hyderabad brothers and balamurali krishna regularly feature tamil krithis in their concerts.

Telugus also have cultural ties with north indians and central Indians. for instance, telugu grammarians formulated their rules of grammar on the basis of Panini's sanskrit grammar. Panini was from north-west India.

Then Telugus have their own translations of North Indian religious works. For instance, the Telugu translation of Tulsidas's Hanuman Chalisa. Most religious Telugus who are Hindus chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly as part of their prayers. Religious Hindus in North India also chant Hanuman Chalisa regularly. This is only one example of the cultural bond existing between North Indians and Telugus.

As of today, two Telugus (film actress Jaya Prada and cricketer Azaharuddin) are Lok Sabha Member of parliaments elected from Uttar Pradesh.

If Tamils and Telugus had been living in complete harmony then there would have been no demand for separate statehood for Andhra.

Westerners who practice Yoga chant "OM" when they are cooling down or meditating. So all those westerners have tons in common with North Indians according to Trashman logic.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Westerners who practice Yoga chant "OM" when they are cooling down or meditating. So all those westerners have tons in common with North Indians according to Trashman logic.

Westerners with a spiritual orientation do chant Om while performing Yoga, but then Om is chanted across India by religious hindus in the course of their prayers. (Of course, there is such a thing as Christian Yoga where the chanting of Om is eschewed.) So the chanting of Om is connecting westerners to all of India and not to a particular part of India.

garam_kuta wrote:

..and of course, the fundamental fact that Om is what Amen was derived from..

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

garam_kuta wrote:

..and of course, the fundamental fact that Om is what Amen was derived from..

If I might add, Om came from Omum, and hence Om is a SI - rather a Tamil word.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

garam_kuta wrote:

..and of course, the fundamental fact that Om is what Amen was derived from..

If I might add, Om came from Omum, and hence Om is a SI - rather a Tamil word.

BTW, Rashmunullah: Although you may gloat that your thread has gone over 7 pages, it is mainly bcz you beef it up by including your own long post and everyone's reply in your response. Not to mention repeating the same stuff over and over.

doofus_maximus wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

garam_kuta wrote:

..and of course, the fundamental fact that Om is what Amen was derived from..

If I might add, Om came from Omum, and hence Om is a SI - rather a Tamil word.

BTW, Rashmunullah: Although you may gloat that your thread has gone over 7 pages, it is mainly bcz you beef it up by including your own long post and everyone's reply in your response. Not to mention repeating the same stuff over and over.

Few months from now he will say that he was having a learned debate/discussion on this topic simply forgetting the fact that his posts were mainly reposts of his own posts

charvaka wrote:

doofus_maximus wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

garam_kuta wrote:

..and of course, the fundamental fact that Om is what Amen was derived from..

If I might add, Om came from Omum, and hence Om is a SI - rather a Tamil word.

BTW, Rashmunullah: Although you may gloat that your thread has gone over 7 pages, it is mainly bcz you beef it up by including your own long post and everyone's reply in your response. Not to mention repeating the same stuff over and over.

Few months from now he will say that he was having a learned debate/discussion on this topic simply forgetting the fact that his posts were mainly reposts of his own posts

The rule of copy-pastes is this... first copy-paste, everybody ignores it. Second copy-paste, everybody is like "wha???" Third copy-paste, people know you are serious. Fourth copy-paste, they start respecting your persistence. It is by the fifth or sixth copy-paste that what you copy-paste becomes the truth. That is why Bollywhat wasn't a true sincere effort... it ended at the "bollywhat???" stage.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:
Who is more venerated by Telugus--Kattabomman or Hanuman? The fact that religious Telugus who are Hindus venerate Hanuman just as religious Hindus of North India venerate Hanuman is another example of the cultural bond between Telugus and North Indians.

just re-read this and burst out laughing. what kind of a crazy ass comparison is this? one is a character from religious mythology venerated by all hindus, and other was a local chieftain who is credited with waging the first war of independence against a foreign power. you are so childish.

the point is that religious hindus in the hindi heartland and also religious hindus in Andhra Pradesh chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly. Religious Hindus in Tamil Nadu do not chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly.

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:
Who is more venerated by Telugus--Kattabomman or Hanuman? The fact that religious Telugus who are Hindus venerate Hanuman just as religious Hindus of North India venerate Hanuman is another example of the cultural bond between Telugus and North Indians.

just re-read this and burst out laughing. what kind of a crazy ass comparison is this? one is a character from religious mythology venerated by all hindus, and other was a local chieftain who is credited with waging the first war of independence against a foreign power. you are so childish.

the point is that religious hindus in the hindi heartland and also religious hindus in Andhra Pradesh chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly. Religious Hindus in Tamil Nadu do not chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly.

here is another example of the cultural bond between Telugu people and the people of Uttar Pradesh: The great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya would spend four months every year in Vrindavan which of course is in Uttar Pradesh. Vallabhachara is the founder of a sub-sect of Vedanta known as Shudha Advaita, and he is famous for having won a great philosophical debate between rival philosophers organized by the great Telugu king Krishnadeva Raya.

Rashmun wrote:in an earlier post, Charvaka writes:

charvaka wrote:
I don't know if I have mentioned this before, but in the rAmAlayam in the small town in the heart of Telangana where some of my relatives live, Tiruppavai is sung, and a shrine to AndALamma is frequented by women.

But a temple for Andal is present in Uttar Pradesh also. Moreover this Andal temple for Uttar Pradesh has been constructed as per the explicit desire of Andal herself. This is an example of the unique cultural bond existing between the people of Tamil Nadu and the people of Uttar Pradesh.

------
Sri Rangji Mandir

Sri Rangji Mandir is dedicated to
Lord Sri Goda-Rangamannar.
Goda or Andal as she is popularly known in
South India was a famous 8th century Vaishnava saint who had composed "Tiruppuvai"
which centers around her love for her beloved Lord Krishna and his leela
bhoomi Vrindavan. She pines for him, fasts for him, sings songs in his
praise and wants to attain him by marrying him.
Lord Ranganatha who is none other
than Krishna answers her prayers by becoming her bridegroom. In Sri
Rangji Mandir, Lord Krishna is present as the bridegroom with a walking
stick in his hand as is the custom in a traditional south Indian
marriage. To his right is Andal and to his
left Garuda, the
vahana of Lord Krishna.

Andal had expressed three wishes in "NachiyarTirumozhi"(143
verses composed by her in praise of Lord Krishna). Her first wish was to
spend her life at the feet of Lord Krishna in Vrindavan. Her second wish
that Lord Krishna accept her as his bride came true when she married
Lord Krishna and the third wish that Lord Ranganatha (Lord Krishna) be
offered "Ksheeranna"(dessert
made of rice and milk) in a hundred pots was fulfilled by the eleventh
century vaishnava saint Sri Ramanujacharya. Her first wish which had not
been fulfilled by any of the previous Vaishnava acharyas was fulfilled
by Sri Rangadeshik Swamiji
by constructing this temple where Sri Goda-Rangamannar reside as divya
dampathi (divine couple).

SriRangji temple is one of the largest temple in the whole of North
India. Its one of the very few temples in India, where regular festivals
are celebrated and all the traditions and rituals are performed
according to the prescribed Vedic norms. In SriRangji temple one would
find a unique mixture of both south and north Indian traditions.
In addition to celebrating all the festivals which are part of South Indian
SriVaishnava temple tradition, several festivals which are part of the North
tradition are also celebrated here. For example its only at SriRangji temple where devotees can
enjoy the pleasure of playing holi with the Lord during SriBrahmotsav.

http://www.srirangjimandir.org/

Rashmun wrote:
here is another example of the cultural bond between Telugu people and the people of Uttar Pradesh: The great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya would spend four months every year in Vrindavan which of course is in Uttar Pradesh. Vallabhachara is the founder of a sub-sect of Vedanta known as Shudha Advaita, and he is famous for having won a great philosophical debate between rival philosophers organized by the great king Krishnadeva Raya.

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

charvaka wrote:As am I. So why do you think the script looks like that of Dravidian languages?

i cannot answer this because i have not studied the different scripts. I am more interested in the fact that a synthesis took place between an Indo-Aryan language (Oriya) and a dravidian language (Telugu) in North-East Andhra because of which many telugus are unable to understand the telugu spoken in North-East Andhra.

According to the Russian linguist M.S. Andronov, Proto-Dravidian
gave rise to 21 Dravidian Languages. They can be broadly
classified into three groups: Northern group, Central group, and
Southern group of Dravidian languages.

The Northern group consists of three languages. The central group consists
ten langauages. Out of these ten, only telugu became a civilized
language and the rest of the nine languages remained tribal languages.
The southern group consists of languages which includes Kannada, Tamil,
Malayalam, Tulu and others.

Telugu split from Proto-Dravidian between 1500-1000 BC. So, Telugu became
a distinct language by the time any literary activity began to appear in
the Tamil land.

Kannada split from Proto-Dravidian around 0 BC. Note that the current
similarity in scripts between Kannada and Telugu has a lot more
with Chalukyas rule of Andhra than the similarity between the
languages. Admittedly, Kannada is Telugu's closest cousin. In
India the history of scripts has been almost independent of
the history of languages.



http://www.teluguworld.org/Telugu/dravidian_class.html

---

Proto-Dravidian gave rise to totally 21 Dravidian languages. They are


Northern Group

Brahui
Malto
Kudukh

Central Group

Gondi
Konda
Kui
Manda
Parji
Gadaba
Kolami
Pengo
Naiki
Kuvi
Telugu

Southern Group

Tulu
Kannada
Kodagu
Toda
Kota
Malayalam
Tamil

https://lists.hcs.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/proto-dravidian

A few things to note:

The vast majority of Telugus are nationalists. But a tiny minority are regionalists. These regionalist Telugus go around claiming kinship with Kannadigas, Malayalis, and Tamils on the basis of the fact that their first language Telugu is a dravidian language like the first language of the Tamils, Malayalis, and Kannadigas. These people need to be told that Telugu is in the Central Group of Dravidian languages in which neither Tamil, Kannada, nor Malayalam are placed. If they must claim kinship based on language then they should first do so with people residing in north india and central india whose first language is Gondi, Konda, Kui, Manda, or some of the other languages in the Central Group of dravidian languages in which Telugu is placed.

Hellsangel wrote:Trumpets! Jahan-panah approaching!

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:
Who is more venerated by Telugus--Kattabomman or Hanuman? The fact that religious Telugus who are Hindus venerate Hanuman just as religious Hindus of North India venerate Hanuman is another example of the cultural bond between Telugus and North Indians.

just re-read this and burst out laughing. what kind of a crazy ass comparison is this? one is a character from religious mythology venerated by all hindus, and other was a local chieftain who is credited with waging the first war of independence against a foreign power. you are so childish.

the point is that religious hindus in the hindi heartland and also religious hindus in Andhra Pradesh chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly. Religious Hindus in Tamil Nadu do not chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly.

here is another example of the cultural bond between Telugu people and the people of Uttar Pradesh: The great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya would spend four months every year in Vrindavan which of course is in Uttar Pradesh. Vallabhachara is the founder of a sub-sect of Vedanta known as Shudha Advaita, and he is famous for having won a great philosophical debate between rival philosophers organized by the great Telugu king Krishnadeva Raya.

Also, many North Indians claim allegiance to the sect founded by the great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya. So the Telugu-North Indian allegiance has a long history behind it.

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

just re-read this and burst out laughing. what kind of a crazy ass comparison is this? one is a character from religious mythology venerated by all hindus, and other was a local chieftain who is credited with waging the first war of independence against a foreign power. you are so childish.

the point is that religious hindus in the hindi heartland and also religious hindus in Andhra Pradesh chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly. Religious Hindus in Tamil Nadu do not chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly.

here is another example of the cultural bond between Telugu people and the people of Uttar Pradesh: The great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya would spend four months every year in Vrindavan which of course is in Uttar Pradesh. Vallabhachara is the founder of a sub-sect of Vedanta known as Shudha Advaita, and he is famous for having won a great philosophical debate between rival philosophers organized by the great Telugu king Krishnadeva Raya.

Also, many North Indians claim allegiance to the sect founded by the great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya. So the Telugu-North Indian allegiance has a long history behind it.

in other words, since the teachings of the great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya continue to be respected by the people of North India-- to the extent that there are many north indians who belong to the hindu sect founded by Vallabhacharya-- no regionalist can disrupt the unity of the Telugu and the North Indian people.

Hellsangel wrote:Trumpets! Jahan-panah approaching!

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:Trumpets! Jahan-panah approaching!

not sure what's going on, but it sure sounds funny in a very moghal kind of way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxjRYXYpv9c&feature=related

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

just re-read this and burst out laughing. what kind of a crazy ass comparison is this? one is a character from religious mythology venerated by all hindus, and other was a local chieftain who is credited with waging the first war of independence against a foreign power. you are so childish.

the point is that religious hindus in the hindi heartland and also religious hindus in Andhra Pradesh chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly. Religious Hindus in Tamil Nadu do not chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly.

here is another example of the cultural bond between Telugu people and the people of Uttar Pradesh: The great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya would spend four months every year in Vrindavan which of course is in Uttar Pradesh. Vallabhachara is the founder of a sub-sect of Vedanta known as Shudha Advaita, and he is famous for having won a great philosophical debate between rival philosophers organized by the great Telugu king Krishnadeva Raya.

Also, many North Indians claim allegiance to the sect founded by the great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya. So the Telugu-North Indian allegiance has a long history behind it.

in other words, since the teachings of the great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya continue to be respected by the people of North India-- to the extent that there are many north indians who belong to the hindu sect founded by Vallabhacharya-- no regionalist can disrupt the unity of the Telugu and the North Indian people.

charvaka wrote:Tilting at windmills is an English idiom which means attacking imaginary enemies. The word “tilt”, in this context, comes from jousting.

The phrase is sometimes used to describe confrontations where adversaries are incorrectly perceived, or courses of action that are based on misinterpreted or misapplied heroic, romantic, or idealistic justifications.

The phrase derives from an episode in the novel Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes. In the novel, Don Quixote fights windmills that he imagines to be giants. Quixote sees the windmill blades as the giant's arms, for instance. A relevant portion of the novel states:

Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."

"What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.

"Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
—Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills, with other events worthy of happy record.

In Don Quixote, the eponymous protagonist consistently misinterprets his own, his adversaries', and his allies' actions and motives - regularly resulting in apparently unjustified violent actions and consequences.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:hahaha. don quixote is exactly who comes to mind when one thinks of rashmun. i enjoyed reading don quixote as the non-detailed section of the english class in grade seven. chameli is rashmun quixote's sancho panza.

rashmun quixote de la benares. haha.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:hahaha. don quixote is exactly who comes to mind when one thinks of rashmun. i enjoyed reading don quixote as the non-detailed section of the english class in grade seven. chameli is rashmun quixote's sancho panza.

rashmun quixote de la benares. haha.

Don Quixote de la Mancha is who comes to mind when i think of Max trying to minimize the stupendous importance of sanskrit in the development of dravidian languages. In this context, Charvaka is Max Quixote's Sancho Panza Hyderabadi.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:If I might add, Om came from Omum, and hence Om is a SI - rather a Tamil word.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Aha. I always knew it. Telugu-speakers are a bunch of Hanuman-Chalisa-chanting, Vallabhacharya-revering Northindians who speak a patchwork of Sanskrit, Dakhni and Oriya built on top of a central (not Southern) proto-dravidian base, and may or may not use Paninian grammar (depending on how and whether one reads that now-famous PhD thesis). Telugu regionalism murdabad. National synthesis zindabad.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Aha. I always knew it. Telugu-speakers are a bunch of Hanuman-Chalisa-chanting, Vallabhacharya-revering Northindians who speak a patchwork of Sanskrit, Dakhni and Oriya built on top of a central (not Southern) proto-dravidian base, and may or may not use Paninian grammar (depending on how and whether one reads that now-famous PhD thesis). Telugu regionalism murdabad. National synthesis zindabad.

Rashmun wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Aha. I always knew it. Telugu-speakers are a bunch of Hanuman-Chalisa-chanting, Vallabhacharya-revering Northindians who speak a patchwork of Sanskrit, Dakhni and Oriya built on top of a central (not Southern) proto-dravidian base, and may or may not use Paninian grammar (depending on how and whether one reads that now-famous PhD thesis). Telugu regionalism murdabad. National synthesis zindabad.

in fact Vallabhacharya has minimal following in AP itself. The vast majority of Vallabhacharya's followers are North Indians. This is similar to how traditional Malayali philosophers refused to acknowledge the supremacy of their own Adi Sankaracharya (the founder of Advaita Vedanta) and continued to place emphasis on the Mimansa philosophy (also known as Purva Mimansa).

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

just re-read this and burst out laughing. what kind of a crazy ass comparison is this? one is a character from religious mythology venerated by all hindus, and other was a local chieftain who is credited with waging the first war of independence against a foreign power. you are so childish.

the point is that religious hindus in the hindi heartland and also religious hindus in Andhra Pradesh chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly. Religious Hindus in Tamil Nadu do not chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly.

here is another example of the cultural bond between Telugu people and the people of Uttar Pradesh: The great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya would spend four months every year in Vrindavan which of course is in Uttar Pradesh. Vallabhachara is the founder of a sub-sect of Vedanta known as Shudha Advaita, and he is famous for having won a great philosophical debate between rival philosophers organized by the great Telugu king Krishnadeva Raya.

Also, many North Indians claim allegiance to the sect founded by the great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya. So the Telugu-North Indian allegiance has a long history behind it.

in other words, since the teachings of the great Telugu philosopher Vallabhacharya continue to be respected by the people of North India-- to the extent that there are many north indians who belong to the hindu sect founded by Vallabhacharya-- no regionalist can disrupt the unity of the Telugu and the North Indian people.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this guy could learn a thing or two from rashmun.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this guy could learn a thing or two from rashmun.

Max, have you ever eaten Arcot Biryani?

Rashmun wrote:Hyderabad Diary





I am off to Hyderabad, home of grand cuisine, alternative centre of north Indian food to Lucknow,
birthplace of famous biryani and a city celebrated in gastronomic
legend. Truth be told, I know very little about Hyderabad. I was here in
the ’70s, a trip I remember because it coincided with the death of
Elvis Presley.
And then I was back here at the end of the 1980s. If you want to
recognize how brilliantly perspicacious I am as a political commentator,
then you can use this story. I was in Hyderabad to meet NT Rama Rao.
The day after I arrived, I was told that the great man was too busy to
see me. However, I could meet his son-in-law.
Naturally I refused. I had come to meet the organ grinder. I was not
going to be satisfied with the monkey, some son-in-law who would clearly
amount to nothing.

Some man called Chandrababu Naidu…
This time I am back in Hyderabad without a political or rock and roll
agenda. I am accompanied by my Discovery Travel and Living crew and we
are shooting for our episode on biryani.

We all know the legends by now. Though the Mughal
court based in Delhi invented most of the great dishes of modern north
Indian cuisine, these were preserved by the satraps after the decline of
the Mughal Empire following Aurangzeb.
Thus, Lucknow is a better example of Mughal court cuisine than Delhi.
And the same is true of Hyderabad, where the Nizam-ul-Mulk, the Mughal
Governor of the Deccan, finally declared himself independent and came
eventually to be known as His Exalted Highness, The Nizam of Hyderabad.

Part of the research for our biryani episode has led us to Hyderabad.
We all know that the kuchcha biryani of Hyderabad is justly famous.
Many people argue that it is the only true biryani. The biryanis of
Lucknow, they say, are no more than pulaos: combinations of cooked rice
and cooked meat. The Hyderabadi
biryani, on the other hand, uses raw rice and raw meat cooked together.
Thus, it is a complete dish, unlike the Awadhi pretender. Soon after I
get to Hyderabad, I am delighted to find that nearly every dhaba and
restaurant has a sign outside reading: “Biryani served here”. Or some variation thereof.

Ah, I say to myself, I am finally going to get the biryani that
Hyderabad is famous for. On the first evening, I ask for a biryani at
Kebabs and Kurries, the Indian restaurant at the ITC Kakatiya, where I
am staying. Sure, says the chef, he will be happy to serve me a Dum Pukht biryani.

I point out to him that a Dum Pukht biryani, no matter how delicious
and inventive, is an ITC creation, a marriage of the Lucknow and
Hyderabadi traditions. Could he please do a genuine Hyderabadi biryani
for me? Sorry sir, he says. All we do is Dum Pukht biryani.

The biryani, when it arrives, is fine as are the local dishes:
patthar ka ghosht and tala hua mutton. But I could have had the same
biryani at the Maurya. The next day we begin our biryani search in
earnest. We go first to a local Hyderabadi restaurant so famous that I
will not embarrass it by revealing its name.

I tell the manager that we are here to eat genuine Hyderabadi food.
What can he serve us? The manager looks dubiously at us and I have the
terrible sense that he is not really from the hotel trade at all and
that this is just a job he is doing while his visa for Saudi Arabia
comes through.

Would you like something spicy, he asks. I respond that I don’t
really care what the level of spicing is as long as it is something so
authentic that I can only get it in Hyderabad. What about burbura
chicken, he asks. I am sorry. What exactly is that? You will love it, he
says. Twenty minutes later, the biryani arrives. It is rubbish, the
sort of ready-made biryani you get at any takeaway place in Bombay or
Delhi.

Disappointed, I send for the manager again. What about the genuine Hyderabadi dish I was promised?
It’s on its way, he smiles. And indeed it is. When it does arrive, I recognize it immediately. It is chicken Manchurian with a garnish of garam masala and coriander.

I call the manager again. Is this really Hyderabadi? It is one of our
most popular dishes, here in Hyderabad, he says indignantly. I give up
and try Azizia, another biryani place that has come heavily recommended.
My heart sinks when I notice that the restaurant has a full Chinese
menu.

But at least it does not bother to disguise chicken Manchurian with a
false name, I say to myself. My Gujarati sensibilities are damaged,
however, when they ask me if I would like a half-tongue. And what is
that, I ask. It’s half of the tongue of the goat, they say. If you would
like the whole tongue, it’s only a little bit more expensive. It goes
wonderfully well with our trotter gravy.

Thank you, I say, can I just have the biryani? Within minutes, they
have placed a huge bowl of mutton biryani in front of me. It’s not
particularly hot but by God, it is tasty! Even the mutton is so tender
that it falls apart as you pick at it. A portion that could feed three
people costs less than a 100 rupees.

I take my crew, invade the kitchen and find the cooks. Thrilled at
the prospect of being on TV, they happily show me how they make it. I am
massively relieved. This is a genuine Hyderabadi biryani made with raw
meat and raw rice. What’s more, because they can never re-heat it, they
keep making new batches of biryani every two hours or so.
A final stop is an all-day and all-night dhaba near a mosque. They don’t
waste time on goat. Everything is made with beef. I approve entirely
and ask to try all the beef dishes.

The tala hua mutton made with beef (never mind the name) is not much
better than the goat version that I’ve had all over Hyderabad. And a
beef seekh kebab is nicely fatty without being significantly better than
the goat version.

The biryani, when it does arrive, is rather like a pulao, bland and
tasting of nothing. The owner notices the TV cameras and comes over.
Would I like more beef? I say that it would be nice to have any beef at
all. He smiles and a short while later returns with several boneless
pieces of beef that have clearly been recently cooked. I smile and try
and look polite. What do I think of the biryani, he asks. Well, I say,
politeness be damned, it’s a little bland.

Ah, he responds, that’s because they gave you the biryani from the
top. I will get you the real biryani from the bottom. Minutes later he
is back with a spicy biryani that bears no resemblance to the one I was
served. You see, he says, we get all kinds of people here and we give
most of them the rice from the top of the pot. The ones we like,
however, get the biryani from the bottom which has all the masala.

I protest weakly that this seems rather unfair. He nods in agreement
and seems vastly amused.I try his final biryani. It’s okay but frankly I
doubt if it uses raw meat. Certainly, it is not a patch on the Azizia
biryani.

The following day, I am invited to lunch with an old Hyderabadi
family. A genuine biryani is made on a open fire according to an old
family recipe. It is brilliant, full of subtle flavours and cooked
according to the old kuchcha biryani recipe. I ask my hosts why this
biryani bears no resemblance to anything I have eaten on the streets of
Hyderabad.

They smile apologetically. The restaurant biryani, they explain, is a
poor man’s food made by cooks who know how to cut corners. Their
biryani, on the other hand, is a celebration food, full of expensive
ingredients, and cooked for hours.
So, there goes another myth.

I had gone to Hyderabad imagining that anybody could eat great
biryani on the street. But the truth is that the local biryani is not
very different from the stuff you get in the streets of Bombay or Delhi.
To eat the real thing, you have to have rich friends with a noble
lineage.
What a shame! And here I was, looking for a democratic dish!
http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/rude-food/2009/02/21/hyderabad-diary/

Rashmun wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Hyderabad Diary





I am off to Hyderabad, home of grand cuisine, alternative centre of north Indian food to Lucknow,
birthplace of famous biryani and a city celebrated in gastronomic
legend. Truth be told, I know very little about Hyderabad. I was here in
the ’70s, a trip I remember because it coincided with the death of
Elvis Presley.
And then I was back here at the end of the 1980s. If you want to
recognize how brilliantly perspicacious I am as a political commentator,
then you can use this story. I was in Hyderabad to meet NT Rama Rao.
The day after I arrived, I was told that the great man was too busy to
see me. However, I could meet his son-in-law.
Naturally I refused. I had come to meet the organ grinder. I was not
going to be satisfied with the monkey, some son-in-law who would clearly
amount to nothing.

Some man called Chandrababu Naidu…
This time I am back in Hyderabad without a political or rock and roll
agenda. I am accompanied by my Discovery Travel and Living crew and we
are shooting for our episode on biryani.

We all know the legends by now. Though the Mughal
court based in Delhi invented most of the great dishes of modern north
Indian cuisine, these were preserved by the satraps after the decline of
the Mughal Empire following Aurangzeb.
Thus, Lucknow is a better example of Mughal court cuisine than Delhi.
And the same is true of Hyderabad, where the Nizam-ul-Mulk, the Mughal
Governor of the Deccan, finally declared himself independent and came
eventually to be known as His Exalted Highness, The Nizam of Hyderabad.

Part of the research for our biryani episode has led us to Hyderabad.
We all know that the kuchcha biryani of Hyderabad is justly famous.
Many people argue that it is the only true biryani. The biryanis of
Lucknow, they say, are no more than pulaos: combinations of cooked rice
and cooked meat. The Hyderabadi
biryani, on the other hand, uses raw rice and raw meat cooked together.
Thus, it is a complete dish, unlike the Awadhi pretender. Soon after I
get to Hyderabad, I am delighted to find that nearly every dhaba and
restaurant has a sign outside reading: “Biryani served here”. Or some variation thereof.

Ah, I say to myself, I am finally going to get the biryani that
Hyderabad is famous for. On the first evening, I ask for a biryani at
Kebabs and Kurries, the Indian restaurant at the ITC Kakatiya, where I
am staying. Sure, says the chef, he will be happy to serve me a Dum Pukht biryani.

I point out to him that a Dum Pukht biryani, no matter how delicious
and inventive, is an ITC creation, a marriage of the Lucknow and
Hyderabadi traditions. Could he please do a genuine Hyderabadi biryani
for me? Sorry sir, he says. All we do is Dum Pukht biryani.

The biryani, when it arrives, is fine as are the local dishes:
patthar ka ghosht and tala hua mutton. But I could have had the same
biryani at the Maurya. The next day we begin our biryani search in
earnest. We go first to a local Hyderabadi restaurant so famous that I
will not embarrass it by revealing its name.

I tell the manager that we are here to eat genuine Hyderabadi food.
What can he serve us? The manager looks dubiously at us and I have the
terrible sense that he is not really from the hotel trade at all and
that this is just a job he is doing while his visa for Saudi Arabia
comes through.

Would you like something spicy, he asks. I respond that I don’t
really care what the level of spicing is as long as it is something so
authentic that I can only get it in Hyderabad. What about burbura
chicken, he asks. I am sorry. What exactly is that? You will love it, he
says. Twenty minutes later, the biryani arrives. It is rubbish, the
sort of ready-made biryani you get at any takeaway place in Bombay or
Delhi.

Disappointed, I send for the manager again. What about the genuine Hyderabadi dish I was promised?
It’s on its way, he smiles. And indeed it is. When it does arrive, I recognize it immediately. It is chicken Manchurian with a garnish of garam masala and coriander.

I call the manager again. Is this really Hyderabadi? It is one of our
most popular dishes, here in Hyderabad, he says indignantly. I give up
and try Azizia, another biryani place that has come heavily recommended.
My heart sinks when I notice that the restaurant has a full Chinese
menu.

But at least it does not bother to disguise chicken Manchurian with a
false name, I say to myself. My Gujarati sensibilities are damaged,
however, when they ask me if I would like a half-tongue. And what is
that, I ask. It’s half of the tongue of the goat, they say. If you would
like the whole tongue, it’s only a little bit more expensive. It goes
wonderfully well with our trotter gravy.

Thank you, I say, can I just have the biryani? Within minutes, they
have placed a huge bowl of mutton biryani in front of me. It’s not
particularly hot but by God, it is tasty! Even the mutton is so tender
that it falls apart as you pick at it. A portion that could feed three
people costs less than a 100 rupees.

I take my crew, invade the kitchen and find the cooks. Thrilled at
the prospect of being on TV, they happily show me how they make it. I am
massively relieved. This is a genuine Hyderabadi biryani made with raw
meat and raw rice. What’s more, because they can never re-heat it, they
keep making new batches of biryani every two hours or so.
A final stop is an all-day and all-night dhaba near a mosque. They don’t
waste time on goat. Everything is made with beef. I approve entirely
and ask to try all the beef dishes.

The tala hua mutton made with beef (never mind the name) is not much
better than the goat version that I’ve had all over Hyderabad. And a
beef seekh kebab is nicely fatty without being significantly better than
the goat version.

The biryani, when it does arrive, is rather like a pulao, bland and
tasting of nothing. The owner notices the TV cameras and comes over.
Would I like more beef? I say that it would be nice to have any beef at
all. He smiles and a short while later returns with several boneless
pieces of beef that have clearly been recently cooked. I smile and try
and look polite. What do I think of the biryani, he asks. Well, I say,
politeness be damned, it’s a little bland.

Ah, he responds, that’s because they gave you the biryani from the
top. I will get you the real biryani from the bottom. Minutes later he
is back with a spicy biryani that bears no resemblance to the one I was
served. You see, he says, we get all kinds of people here and we give
most of them the rice from the top of the pot. The ones we like,
however, get the biryani from the bottom which has all the masala.

I protest weakly that this seems rather unfair. He nods in agreement
and seems vastly amused.I try his final biryani. It’s okay but frankly I
doubt if it uses raw meat. Certainly, it is not a patch on the Azizia
biryani.

The following day, I am invited to lunch with an old Hyderabadi
family. A genuine biryani is made on a open fire according to an old
family recipe. It is brilliant, full of subtle flavours and cooked
according to the old kuchcha biryani recipe. I ask my hosts why this
biryani bears no resemblance to anything I have eaten on the streets of
Hyderabad.

They smile apologetically. The restaurant biryani, they explain, is a
poor man’s food made by cooks who know how to cut corners. Their
biryani, on the other hand, is a celebration food, full of expensive
ingredients, and cooked for hours.
So, there goes another myth.

I had gone to Hyderabad imagining that anybody could eat great
biryani on the street. But the truth is that the local biryani is not
very different from the stuff you get in the streets of Bombay or Delhi.
To eat the real thing, you have to have rich friends with a noble
lineage.
What a shame! And here I was, looking for a democratic dish!
http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/rude-food/2009/02/21/hyderabad-diary/

Did you know that there are over 26 varieties of biryani made in India?
Or that biryani comes from the Persian word 'birian' which means 'fried before cooking'?
Or that, though it is considered a royal dish of the Nizams and the Nawabs it was never ever served to the royal guests?
Thirty-six-year-old Vishwanath 'Vishy' Shenoy has trivia like this and the history of the biryani on
his lips. He also has a restaurant dedicated to his passion: The
Biryani Merchant, which he hopes to develop into a national chain.
About a month ago, the first restaurant was launched at Castle Street in Bangalore.
"Chennai is too conservative while Hyderabad places too much of premium on its knowing all about biryanis.
Delhi isn't too hot on rice, while in Mumbai real estate is very
expensive. Bangalore, with its cosmopolitan outlook, seemed the best
place to do a proof of concept," says Vishy Shenoy, CEO, Epicurean
Entrepreneurs Private Limited, the company that runs the restaurant.
Biryani
Merchant is jointly owned by Vishy Shenoy, who gave up an career as
head of sales and marketing in one of Sri Lanka's biggest industrial
groups; Abhik Biswas, a technology professional with Cisco; and Ramesh
Sivaram, a professional with specialisation in processed foods.
Claiming to offer the 'Quintessential Biryani Experience', Biryani Merchant has a range of biryanis that come complete with appetizers, accompaniments, desserts and a special Sulaimani Chai.
"Biryani Merchant is a showcase for biryani,
a dish that has been abused like no other. The effort here is to
apprise the guest of the origin, evolution and the history of the
different varieties of biryani. Hygienically prepared and served
with traditional accompaniments and desserts is what Biryani Merchant is
all about," says Shenoy.


For the uninitiated, Shenoy offers a peek into the history of the biryani.
Biryani is believed to have been brought to India by Taimur Lang, or Taimur, the lame.
One branch of the biryani comes from the Mughals, who got the dish from Persia and subsequently during their reign in India, the biryani entrenched itself in places like Lucknow, Hyderabad, et cetera.
The other branch of biryani is
supposed to have crossed the Arabian Sea and come to Calicut, brought
in by the Arab traders. The Calicut Biryani is served with vinegar
pickles and papads fried in coconut oil, is a softer variety and light
on the stomach has no relation in terms of taste to the other biryanis in the country.

Almost every community today has its own version of the biryani.
In the northwest is the Memoni Biryani (people who inhabited the area
between Sindh Gujarat and Pakistan) is an extremely spicy biryani,while the Sindhi Mutton Biryani is distinctly different.
There is also the Turkish Pilaf and the Iranian Biryani. The Bohris have their version of biryani that
is normally cooked for their weddings and is flavoured with a lot of
tomatoes. The Kashmiri Bhuna Ghost Biryani and the Kashmiri Katche Ghost
ki Biryani is the benevolence of the Mughal rulers to the northern-most
state of India.

The Lucknow (Awadhi) Biryani is the footprint the Moghuls left on the eastern part of India. From Lucknow the biryani moved to Calcutta when, in 1856, Nawab Wajid Ali Shah was deposed by the British.
His team of cooks moved with him and so did the biryani. In Kolkata the biryani entered poorer homes, which could not afford meat everyday, so the meat was replaced by potatoes.
Aurangzeb
is believed to have invaded the South and installed the Nizam-ul-mulk
who later as the Asfa Jahi ruler became the Nizam of Hyderabad.
That
explains the movement of the Biryani down south, says Shenoy. From the
Nizam's kitchen originated the Hyderabadi Biryani and the delicacies
that go with it like the Mirchi ka Salan, Dhanshak and Baghare Baingan.

It
is not difficult to imagine that the repertoire included 26 types
because the Hyderabadi Biryani itself is made in different styles --
Katchi Biryani, where the meat is marinated in curd and then steamed
with rice, and the Pakki Biryani, where the meat is cooked with all the
accompanying spices and then the rice is simmered with the resultant
gravy redolent of mace, ittar and kewra in a sealed handi with saffron and cardamom.
The Vegetable Biryani is the 'tarkari'
version, which was originally made for the cashiers and financiers of
the Nawabs, who were Mahajan Hindus. The Hyderabadi version of the mixed
Vegetable Biryani is the Tahiri.

Marriages between the families of the Nizams of Hyderabad and the Nawab of Arcot explains the journey of the biryani into what is called Arcot Biryani, another distinct type of biryani, which is made with smaller grains of rice.

Rashmun wrote:
the point is that religious hindus in the hindi heartland and also religious hindus in Andhra Pradesh chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly. Religious Hindus in Tamil Nadu do not chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:
the point is that religious hindus in the hindi heartland and also religious hindus in Andhra Pradesh chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly. Religious Hindus in Tamil Nadu do not chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly.

rashmun did it come as a complete surprise to you that composers of tamilian origin had written carnatic compositions in telugu or did you already know that?

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:
the point is that religious hindus in the hindi heartland and also religious hindus in Andhra Pradesh chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly. Religious Hindus in Tamil Nadu do not chant the Hanuman Chalisa regularly.

rashmun did it come as a complete surprise to you that composers of tamilian origin had written carnatic compositions in telugu or did you already know that?

This is hardly surprising considering that writers from all over India have written in hindi/hindustani, including writers from Tamil Nadu and writers from Andhra Pradesh. Incidentally, when i visited the Subramanya Bharati museum and library opposite Parthasarathi temple i asked the librarian that i wanted to see the hindi works of Subramanya Bharati. She brought forth a book and asked me 'is this in Hindi?'. Well, it looked like a dravidian script to me. It was not Tamil, because the librarian would have recognized it otherwise. Perhaps it was in Kannada or Telugu. When i said 'No it is not Hindi' she said that then they don't have any Hindi works of Bharati.

Why they don't have ALL the works of Subramanya Bharati in the museum/library is a mystery to me. Moreover, the fact that you cannot purchased any of the works of Bharati nor any biography of Bharati in this museum/library is a shame and a disgrace for all Tamilians in my opinion.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there you go changing the subject again. answer the question which has nothing to do with hindi or bharathi. was it a surprise to you that while you were bloviating about the connections between duckini-cluckini and telugu, i brought it to your notice that tamilians had composed classical music in telugu. was that surprising to you?